Ok i was going to get some mid bass drivers but since i have decided with the right amp and what not my cdt 6.5 well cover this area. i now have more money for subs... i have decided on going with 2 or 3 subs instead of one. these are what i'm looking at chooseing from. 2 ED 8A's with 1 ED 12A, 3 ed 10A's, 2 ED 8A's with 1 ED 10A, or 2 ED 12A's. i'm a SQ guy and i want the system to be Elemental Designs subs and i know what amp/s i well be choosing. i dont want this system to be lacking a SPL but i definatly want alot of SQ. i was leaning towards a single 12 and 2 8's or 3 10's... but i would like some input on what you guys would choose so i can see some perspectives i might not think of. this is going to be the system i stick with for awhile so i want to make sure its all it can be and i have all the facts before i buy.
Replies (23)
erikcooper on 02/17/2004 00:16:08
I am not positive but I am thinking the 2 12 or 3 10 idea may be best to keep all the bass drivers the same sizes. I could be wrong but it seems like someone has mentioned doing that.
uochronos on 02/17/2004 01:19:33
hmm i would like to know more about that one way or the other. because i was thinking 2 differnt sizes would be better because they would both respond differnt and handle differnt frequensies of bass better. but i can see how that could conflict also.
kiaman on 02/17/2004 03:27:48
bottom line....its not a good idea, unless the sizes are crossed over to only do certan frequencys (ie have the 8's go from 70-120 and the 12 or 15 go from 20-50 with a 24db slope) that should be ok, but then again if your going sealed you must try and make the Q be the same......and with ported....forget it itll never sound the same.....plain and simple i dont think its a good idea....some people may tell you different......but yea try it if you want....if it dont work sell the ones you dont want...if it does work...great you proved me wroung GRIN
uochronos on 02/17/2004 10:21:18
well crossing them over from like 25-60 and then 60-120 would not be a problem and they well be alll sealed but thats not really what i wanted... what would sound louder and clearer more so clearer though. i'm willing to put out the money to make any set up work and work right i want a system that wel make me happy long term.
uochronos on 02/17/2004 20:37:58
ok here is a crazy question how do you wire 3 subs together? lets say they are 3 10" subs with 4Ohm DVC? could i wire 2 of the DVC subs for a 2 ohm load each sub and then the other sub for a 4 ohm load then wire the 2 2ohm subs together for a 4 ohm load then wire the 4ohm one to the other two and get a total 2ohm load? hmm even rereading that myself its confusing if you need any clarification please ask. i have just never used more then 2 subs and i'm a bit confused on the possibilities
alanjlamore on 02/17/2004 21:09:21
Hey, I just read this article earlier:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t12
It's assuming all 3 subs are either SVC or all 3 are DVC.
You're only going to get 1.34Ohms, 2.67Ohms or 3Ohms, with 3 subs.
alanjlamore on 02/17/2004 21:20:35
Oh yea,
For 3-4ohm DVC subs, you'd wire each individual sub (2 voice coils) in series to it's self (8ohms each sub), then wire the 3-8 ohm subs in parallel to get 2.67 ohms.
If you did the opposite (wire individual subs in parallel, then wire the subs in series) you'd get 6 ohms I believe (3-2ohm subs in series).
uochronos on 02/17/2004 21:22:09
ok then i'm confused what type of amp would i use? would a 2ohm stable amp be able to go down to 1.34 or would a 4ohm satble be able to go down to 3? or would i have to get a 2 ohm stable one and lose power by bringing it up to 2.67ohm? basicaly i have narrowed it down to either 2 ED 12A's or 3 ED 10A's either way i would have 1800watts rms going to them. anyone have any insight on any ups or downs on either of these set ups.
alanjlamore on 02/17/2004 22:05:54
I think you'd need a 1 ohm stable amp for 1.34 ohms, and a 2 ohm stable amp for 2.67 ohms.
As long as you know an amps power at 4 or 2 ohms, I'm sure there's an easy formula to figgure out how much power your amp will put out with the 1.34 or 2.67ohm loads, but I don't know what it is.
I think that as far as the 2 12s or 3 10s are concerned, as long as you have the same power going to all of the subs, the 3 10s should be louder since they'd have more overall surface area, but the 12s should sound a little deaper.
Just remember that if you have an amp hooked up to the 2 12s (with a 2 ohm load for example), and use the same amp for the 3 10s (with a 1.34 ohm load) you'd have more power (total) going to the 10s than the 12s.
And, of course, if you had the same scenario with the 3 10s with a 2.67 ohm load, then the 10s would have less power than the 12s (total).
This would only be slightly more or less though, it might not even be noticeable.
Just my oppinions, hope it helps
uochronos on 02/17/2004 22:23:37
ya i dont so much care about louder i'm going from 2 type R 10's to this new setup so it well be more then load enough either way i would imagine. am i going to get more SQ out of one of the set up or better response from the 10's? just alot of variables the more i think about the 3 10"s the less i wanna deal with wierd numbers like 1.34 ohms though hehe.
swez on 02/18/2004 18:44:25
A 3x10 setup will give tight, crisp bass and if your enclosure is well matched to these drivers, the deep lows will be there too.
Seems to me, your best bet is a 2 ohm stable amp with adequate power to get them to full potential. This means 3 DVC 4+4 ohm subs. Each sub is wired series for 8 ohms, then all 3 subs in parallel for a net of 2.67 ohms.
Now, depending on how much RMS power these subs can take and the enclosure style used (ported or sealed) will determine the amp you choose.
As for Midbass drivers... the e8A will go up to 150 Hz., and can come down to 50-60 Hz. However, this makes for a real juggling act with crossovers and some EQ to get a decent mix. Your CDT's will handle 60 Hz., just fine. But for a bit more power handling and SPL/SQ, crossing these and the subs at ~80 Hz., makes the most sense.
Yes, there are other 8" drivers you can go with and these can go a bit lower than the CDT's and higher than the e8A's... but why all the added expense? You would need a very selective band pass filter for the MB drivers and an amp. Then amps for subs and your front stage CDT's.
Atop that, a decent EQ would be very helpful to balance out all the peaks and vallys in the frequency plot. Your chances of some delicate harmonic cancellations are possible as well. Is having a MB driver set worth all that?
Comments?
Swez
uochronos on 02/18/2004 23:38:38
the elemental designs 10a's take 600-1200watts rms... i was looking at puting 1800watts into them at 2ohm if i had 3 of them. how much less power well the 1800watt 2 ohm amp put out at 2.67ohm speaker load?
i decided to just stick with my cdts for the mid bass. and go with just subs so i'm not going to get the 8a's anymore.
so i well have either 2 12A's or 3 10A's... i almost thing the 2 12's would be a better bet for me for 2 reasons 1 i have 2 10" speakers now and they just dont hit low enough for me... although the A series elemental designs problay hit lower better then my current alpine type r's... 2 12's is also simpler to match an amp to since i well be getting closer to exactly 2ohms instad of 2.67. alot of hard things for me to think over hehe.
so far this is what i'm looking at
HU - pioneer premier deh-p640 (have)
front sound stage - CDT HD-62cf (have)
Rear Fill - decent 6x8s (have)
front/rear amp - avionixx AXT 800.4
EQ - audio control EQX or similar model from other company
Subs - 2 ED 12A's or 3 ED 10A's undecided
sub amp - Tsunami 1800.1(from avionixx) or avionix AXT 1200.2
uochronos on 02/18/2004 23:46:29
another question that may help me. alot of people tell me that 2 subs or 3 subs sound better then a single sub... obviously they sound louder but do they actualy respond and reproduce the sound better if there is more then one? because if 1 would reproduce the sound just as well as 2 would just not as loud i could take that and be happy with it. i just want the best responsivness and sq i can posibly get. i think a single 12A with 1200watts would be loud enough i just dont want to lose SQ or response. maybe someone could explain if there is a difference in this way with multiple subs compared to a single sub.
uochronos on 02/18/2004 23:51:35
hmm sorry about so many posts withen this thread but another thing just happened into my mind... i'am getting a nice yellow top optima or similar and upgrading my altenator. well a yellow top anmd say a 200amp alt be enough to push the avionix AXT 800.4 and 1200.2?
swez on 02/19/2004 10:15:32
Hummm, you have a lot of questions today...
1. At 2 ohms, you'll get ~1800 watts
2. At 2.67 ohms, figure ~1350 watts (~25% less watts)
This difference in output power will hardly be noticable. A net drop of ~1.5 dB in SPL is all.
NOTE: For every doubling of applied power to a driver, you pick up +3dB of SPL. Ie: 1000 watts = "X" dB; 2000 watts = "X" + 3 dB
==================================================
The question of 2 subs VS 3 subs... depends on the drivers used and power applied to each driver. Adding a driver will net +3dB more SPL as opposed to only having 1 driver... assuming they both get the same power input and so on. If you go ported, you can pick up another
3-5dB of SPL at tuning frequency of the port & cabin resonance freq.
As long as each driver is in the same plane of mounting, you will get good acoustical coupling and minimal phase cancellations in a small listening area.
==================================================
A single 12" sub and 1200 watts are a lot to ask of a given driver. The suspension will have to be very rugged, HD spiders and a large
voicecoil to dissapate the heat. Also, smaller sealed enclosures allow for more power input. The trade off is often less SPL and not as much low end bass. Once you reach X-max (maximum cone excursion) your sub is taking all the power it can safetly handle at a given frequency range. Anymore power, you run the risk of blowing the sub.
Also, you can improve the lows end extension of a driver by using a larger enclosure or porting. However, when this is done, the SPL range limits will usually drop a few dB before X-max is reached. There's always a trade off.
==================================================
As for power to these amps, not sure what the input watts for each amp mentioned would be. Figure you will need ~50-60 amperes of current to run all basic functions in the vehicle. Then, add up the current needs of your amplifiers at say... 85% of max output. This will tell you how large an ALT will be needed to power the audio gear and still support basic vehicle funtions. As for the battery... the largest CCA rated battery you can fit into your cage, would be a good current buffer between your gear and vehicle current demand.
The main thing here... once the engine is running, the ALT provides the bulk of the watts to run all devices in the vehicle. The battery, once it is fully recharged, will act like a buffer to provide added watts for peak demands encountered. So the ALT and BAT have to be sufficient to meet nominal and peak demands of the entire system.
Also, most ALTs produce their full rated power above 1800 RPM. At idle speeds (700-900 RPM) ALT output will drop and the battery has to fill the gap in power. Some employ a smaller pully on the ALT to keep the ALT RPM up at idle speeds. This works well in most cases and will help current sag at idle speeds.
Hope that helps,
Swez
uochronos on 02/19/2004 18:05:06
ok great swez that helped alot i feel alot less confused now.
i'm waiting on the avionixx techs but i'm assumeing since they are class T amps and very effecient that the 1200watt one takes 120amps of fuses and that the 125watts x 4 channel one takes 60amps of fuses so looks like i well need slightly bigger then 200amp alt probaly.
as far as a single sub being able to take 1200watts i have already talked to the ED tech quite alot and they say the 12A and 15A can take this much power fine in a sealed enclosure...
one thing i'm still not 100% clear on is do you just lose spl if you take a sub out of the equation? lets say for fun that i had 2 12A Elemental designs speakers and was powering them with 900watts each and lets say i unhooked one and then only had one running at 900watts would i only lose loudness? or would a single driver be less responsive and recreate the sounds worse then 2? I ask this because you always see people with 2 or more subs hardly ever a single sub.
swez on 02/19/2004 20:28:28
Yep, if you're gonna push the amps hard, 200 ampere ALT is a good target. Since they are class T, they are very efficient. (90%+) Chances are good that your sub amp will run fine on 85-100A and the 4 channel will need ~45A at high listening levels. It really depends on the material you listen to.
About 2 subs vs 1... there is no law that says you much have 2 subs. Really depends on the SPL target you want and how beefy the subs are. The more efficient the sub, the less power it will require to reach full output potential. (X-max) A 90dB SPL sub will be noticably louder that an 86dB SPL sub with the same input power. (+4 dB to be exact).
If you powered 2 subs at 900 watts RMS, can expect something in the mid 140's dB of SPL. If you shut one amp/sub off, you will lose ~-3dB of SPL.
FYI: There are some really potent subs in the market today. A single 12" or 15" in the proper enclosure can really do a nice job pounding out the bass. A 15" will usually be more efficient, take more power and displace more air. That's what makes for a super bass machine... moving lots of air!
Swez
uochronos on 02/19/2004 20:46:25
ok so if i have one Elemental Designs 12A it well only be -3db less then 2 of these? and it well sound the same just quieter? if so i think i well go with one
swez on 02/19/2004 21:08:45
You got the picture... save some dough, cut back on the amp you choose and enjoy the bass. A -3dB drop in hardly noticable once you get above 130 dB of SPL.
Just make sure you use the recommended enclosure specs and power rating of the amp. Also, if you went ported, you can pick up that last 3dB of SPL in the cabin resonance frequency range. Yep... only 1 good sub will do the job.
Swez
uochronos on 02/19/2004 22:46:55
cool looks like i'm going to go with a single elemental designs 12A with 800-1000watts of power in a sealed enclosure... should be booming to say the least thanks for the help.
swez on 02/20/2004 08:56:42
You bet! Just make sure you use the right size enclosure recommended for this sub at that power range. The larger the enclosure, the better your low bass extension will be, but sacrificing some power handling before X-max is reached.
I am not that familiar with ED subs to date, but would guess a sealed box of 1.0 -1.20 cf (internal) will net very good results. Check their specs first though. After looking at the spec sheet, 1.0 cf looks like a good blend of power and net good low end bass.
Swez
SPECS:
Driver Name : e12A.22
Available Voice Coils : Dual 2 ohm
Recommended Power Range : 750/1400 watts
Recommended Applications : Sealed / Vented
Rec. Box Sizes : Sealed (0.7-1.2cF), Vented (1.4-1.8cF)
Enclosure Specs: http://www.edesignaudio.com/im2/boxcuts/12%20rec%20sealed.jpg
uochronos on 02/21/2004 19:29:51
ok hehe one last question i'm set on a single speaker now that i know i well get the same quality sound... but what about 12" vs. 15"? obviosly a 15" has more air it could push and it well most likly hit lower. for an SQ aplication though would it be able to keep up with the 12"? i have heard very few 15" speakers and i dont belive i have ever heard a 15" then one exactly like it but a 12" so i cant make a very good comparison myself
swez on 02/22/2004 11:24:36
A 12" will usually do a pretty good job at punping out good SPL and SQ bass if there is adequate amp power and the enclosure is well matched to the sub.
When using 15's, you can expect lower bass extension, loads of SPL and good SQ if the box is correct. A 15" sub will often handle a bit more power, have more X-max and a higher efficiency rating then a 12" from the same series. Yes, the box will be a bit larger, but your cone area is notably larger and will move more air than a 12.
I use a pair of 10's in my car system now and use a 15" sub in my workshop system. The 15" gets real low and really pound out great SPL & SQ. Will be upgrading to a more efficient sub later and rescalling the box as well. The ED 15" is a consideration as my amp can do 1200 RMS @ 4 ohms bridged and 400 RMS @ 8 ohms/channel. When I crank it up... the whole garage rattles. hehe
Swez
Replies (23)
erikcooper on 02/17/2004 00:16:08
I am not positive but I am thinking the 2 12 or 3 10 idea may be best to keep all the bass drivers the same sizes. I could be wrong but it seems like someone has mentioned doing that.
uochronos on 02/17/2004 01:19:33
hmm i would like to know more about that one way or the other. because i was thinking 2 differnt sizes would be better because they would both respond differnt and handle differnt frequensies of bass better. but i can see how that could conflict also.
kiaman on 02/17/2004 03:27:48
bottom line....its not a good idea, unless the sizes are crossed over to only do certan frequencys (ie have the 8's go from 70-120 and the 12 or 15 go from 20-50 with a 24db slope) that should be ok, but then again if your going sealed you must try and make the Q be the same......and with ported....forget it itll never sound the same.....plain and simple i dont think its a good idea....some people may tell you different......but yea try it if you want....if it dont work sell the ones you dont want...if it does work...great you proved me wroung GRIN
uochronos on 02/17/2004 10:21:18
well crossing them over from like 25-60 and then 60-120 would not be a problem and they well be alll sealed but thats not really what i wanted... what would sound louder and clearer more so clearer though. i'm willing to put out the money to make any set up work and work right i want a system that wel make me happy long term.
uochronos on 02/17/2004 20:37:58
ok here is a crazy question how do you wire 3 subs together? lets say they are 3 10" subs with 4Ohm DVC? could i wire 2 of the DVC subs for a 2 ohm load each sub and then the other sub for a 4 ohm load then wire the 2 2ohm subs together for a 4 ohm load then wire the 4ohm one to the other two and get a total 2ohm load? hmm even rereading that myself its confusing if you need any clarification please ask. i have just never used more then 2 subs and i'm a bit confused on the possibilities
alanjlamore on 02/17/2004 21:09:21
Hey, I just read this article earlier:
http://www.clubknowledge.com/Car_Audio_FAQ/?t12
It's assuming all 3 subs are either SVC or all 3 are DVC.
You're only going to get 1.34Ohms, 2.67Ohms or 3Ohms, with 3 subs.
alanjlamore on 02/17/2004 21:20:35
Oh yea,
For 3-4ohm DVC subs, you'd wire each individual sub (2 voice coils) in series to it's self (8ohms each sub), then wire the 3-8 ohm subs in parallel to get 2.67 ohms.
If you did the opposite (wire individual subs in parallel, then wire the subs in series) you'd get 6 ohms I believe (3-2ohm subs in series).
uochronos on 02/17/2004 21:22:09
ok then i'm confused what type of amp would i use? would a 2ohm stable amp be able to go down to 1.34 or would a 4ohm satble be able to go down to 3? or would i have to get a 2 ohm stable one and lose power by bringing it up to 2.67ohm? basicaly i have narrowed it down to either 2 ED 12A's or 3 ED 10A's either way i would have 1800watts rms going to them. anyone have any insight on any ups or downs on either of these set ups.
alanjlamore on 02/17/2004 22:05:54
I think you'd need a 1 ohm stable amp for 1.34 ohms, and a 2 ohm stable amp for 2.67 ohms.
As long as you know an amps power at 4 or 2 ohms, I'm sure there's an easy formula to figgure out how much power your amp will put out with the 1.34 or 2.67ohm loads, but I don't know what it is.
I think that as far as the 2 12s or 3 10s are concerned, as long as you have the same power going to all of the subs, the 3 10s should be louder since they'd have more overall surface area, but the 12s should sound a little deaper.
Just remember that if you have an amp hooked up to the 2 12s (with a 2 ohm load for example), and use the same amp for the 3 10s (with a 1.34 ohm load) you'd have more power (total) going to the 10s than the 12s.
And, of course, if you had the same scenario with the 3 10s with a 2.67 ohm load, then the 10s would have less power than the 12s (total).
This would only be slightly more or less though, it might not even be noticeable.
Just my oppinions, hope it helps
uochronos on 02/17/2004 22:23:37
ya i dont so much care about louder i'm going from 2 type R 10's to this new setup so it well be more then load enough either way i would imagine. am i going to get more SQ out of one of the set up or better response from the 10's? just alot of variables the more i think about the 3 10"s the less i wanna deal with wierd numbers like 1.34 ohms though hehe.
swez on 02/18/2004 18:44:25
A 3x10 setup will give tight, crisp bass and if your enclosure is well matched to these drivers, the deep lows will be there too.
Seems to me, your best bet is a 2 ohm stable amp with adequate power to get them to full potential. This means 3 DVC 4+4 ohm subs. Each sub is wired series for 8 ohms, then all 3 subs in parallel for a net of 2.67 ohms.
Now, depending on how much RMS power these subs can take and the enclosure style used (ported or sealed) will determine the amp you choose.
As for Midbass drivers... the e8A will go up to 150 Hz., and can come down to 50-60 Hz. However, this makes for a real juggling act with crossovers and some EQ to get a decent mix. Your CDT's will handle 60 Hz., just fine. But for a bit more power handling and SPL/SQ, crossing these and the subs at ~80 Hz., makes the most sense.
Yes, there are other 8" drivers you can go with and these can go a bit lower than the CDT's and higher than the e8A's... but why all the added expense? You would need a very selective band pass filter for the MB drivers and an amp. Then amps for subs and your front stage CDT's.
Atop that, a decent EQ would be very helpful to balance out all the peaks and vallys in the frequency plot. Your chances of some delicate harmonic cancellations are possible as well. Is having a MB driver set worth all that?
Comments?
Swez
uochronos on 02/18/2004 23:38:38
the elemental designs 10a's take 600-1200watts rms... i was looking at puting 1800watts into them at 2ohm if i had 3 of them. how much less power well the 1800watt 2 ohm amp put out at 2.67ohm speaker load?
i decided to just stick with my cdts for the mid bass. and go with just subs so i'm not going to get the 8a's anymore.
so i well have either 2 12A's or 3 10A's... i almost thing the 2 12's would be a better bet for me for 2 reasons 1 i have 2 10" speakers now and they just dont hit low enough for me... although the A series elemental designs problay hit lower better then my current alpine type r's... 2 12's is also simpler to match an amp to since i well be getting closer to exactly 2ohms instad of 2.67. alot of hard things for me to think over hehe.
so far this is what i'm looking at
HU - pioneer premier deh-p640 (have)
front sound stage - CDT HD-62cf (have)
Rear Fill - decent 6x8s (have)
front/rear amp - avionixx AXT 800.4
EQ - audio control EQX or similar model from other company
Subs - 2 ED 12A's or 3 ED 10A's undecided
sub amp - Tsunami 1800.1(from avionixx) or avionix AXT 1200.2
uochronos on 02/18/2004 23:46:29
another question that may help me. alot of people tell me that 2 subs or 3 subs sound better then a single sub... obviously they sound louder but do they actualy respond and reproduce the sound better if there is more then one? because if 1 would reproduce the sound just as well as 2 would just not as loud i could take that and be happy with it. i just want the best responsivness and sq i can posibly get. i think a single 12A with 1200watts would be loud enough i just dont want to lose SQ or response. maybe someone could explain if there is a difference in this way with multiple subs compared to a single sub.
uochronos on 02/18/2004 23:51:35
hmm sorry about so many posts withen this thread but another thing just happened into my mind... i'am getting a nice yellow top optima or similar and upgrading my altenator. well a yellow top anmd say a 200amp alt be enough to push the avionix AXT 800.4 and 1200.2?
swez on 02/19/2004 10:15:32
Hummm, you have a lot of questions today...
1. At 2 ohms, you'll get ~1800 watts
2. At 2.67 ohms, figure ~1350 watts (~25% less watts)
This difference in output power will hardly be noticable. A net drop of ~1.5 dB in SPL is all.
NOTE: For every doubling of applied power to a driver, you pick up +3dB of SPL. Ie: 1000 watts = "X" dB; 2000 watts = "X" + 3 dB
==================================================
The question of 2 subs VS 3 subs... depends on the drivers used and power applied to each driver. Adding a driver will net +3dB more SPL as opposed to only having 1 driver... assuming they both get the same power input and so on. If you go ported, you can pick up another
3-5dB of SPL at tuning frequency of the port & cabin resonance freq.
As long as each driver is in the same plane of mounting, you will get good acoustical coupling and minimal phase cancellations in a small listening area.
==================================================
A single 12" sub and 1200 watts are a lot to ask of a given driver. The suspension will have to be very rugged, HD spiders and a large
voicecoil to dissapate the heat. Also, smaller sealed enclosures allow for more power input. The trade off is often less SPL and not as much low end bass. Once you reach X-max (maximum cone excursion) your sub is taking all the power it can safetly handle at a given frequency range. Anymore power, you run the risk of blowing the sub.
Also, you can improve the lows end extension of a driver by using a larger enclosure or porting. However, when this is done, the SPL range limits will usually drop a few dB before X-max is reached. There's always a trade off.
==================================================
As for power to these amps, not sure what the input watts for each amp mentioned would be. Figure you will need ~50-60 amperes of current to run all basic functions in the vehicle. Then, add up the current needs of your amplifiers at say... 85% of max output. This will tell you how large an ALT will be needed to power the audio gear and still support basic vehicle funtions. As for the battery... the largest CCA rated battery you can fit into your cage, would be a good current buffer between your gear and vehicle current demand.
The main thing here... once the engine is running, the ALT provides the bulk of the watts to run all devices in the vehicle. The battery, once it is fully recharged, will act like a buffer to provide added watts for peak demands encountered. So the ALT and BAT have to be sufficient to meet nominal and peak demands of the entire system.
Also, most ALTs produce their full rated power above 1800 RPM. At idle speeds (700-900 RPM) ALT output will drop and the battery has to fill the gap in power. Some employ a smaller pully on the ALT to keep the ALT RPM up at idle speeds. This works well in most cases and will help current sag at idle speeds.
Hope that helps,
Swez
uochronos on 02/19/2004 18:05:06
ok great swez that helped alot i feel alot less confused now.
i'm waiting on the avionixx techs but i'm assumeing since they are class T amps and very effecient that the 1200watt one takes 120amps of fuses and that the 125watts x 4 channel one takes 60amps of fuses so looks like i well need slightly bigger then 200amp alt probaly.
as far as a single sub being able to take 1200watts i have already talked to the ED tech quite alot and they say the 12A and 15A can take this much power fine in a sealed enclosure...
one thing i'm still not 100% clear on is do you just lose spl if you take a sub out of the equation? lets say for fun that i had 2 12A Elemental designs speakers and was powering them with 900watts each and lets say i unhooked one and then only had one running at 900watts would i only lose loudness? or would a single driver be less responsive and recreate the sounds worse then 2? I ask this because you always see people with 2 or more subs hardly ever a single sub.
swez on 02/19/2004 20:28:28
Yep, if you're gonna push the amps hard, 200 ampere ALT is a good target. Since they are class T, they are very efficient. (90%+) Chances are good that your sub amp will run fine on 85-100A and the 4 channel will need ~45A at high listening levels. It really depends on the material you listen to.
About 2 subs vs 1... there is no law that says you much have 2 subs. Really depends on the SPL target you want and how beefy the subs are. The more efficient the sub, the less power it will require to reach full output potential. (X-max) A 90dB SPL sub will be noticably louder that an 86dB SPL sub with the same input power. (+4 dB to be exact).
If you powered 2 subs at 900 watts RMS, can expect something in the mid 140's dB of SPL. If you shut one amp/sub off, you will lose ~-3dB of SPL.
FYI: There are some really potent subs in the market today. A single 12" or 15" in the proper enclosure can really do a nice job pounding out the bass. A 15" will usually be more efficient, take more power and displace more air. That's what makes for a super bass machine... moving lots of air!
Swez
uochronos on 02/19/2004 20:46:25
ok so if i have one Elemental Designs 12A it well only be -3db less then 2 of these? and it well sound the same just quieter? if so i think i well go with one
swez on 02/19/2004 21:08:45
You got the picture... save some dough, cut back on the amp you choose and enjoy the bass. A -3dB drop in hardly noticable once you get above 130 dB of SPL.
Just make sure you use the recommended enclosure specs and power rating of the amp. Also, if you went ported, you can pick up that last 3dB of SPL in the cabin resonance frequency range. Yep... only 1 good sub will do the job.
Swez
uochronos on 02/19/2004 22:46:55
cool looks like i'm going to go with a single elemental designs 12A with 800-1000watts of power in a sealed enclosure... should be booming to say the least thanks for the help.
swez on 02/20/2004 08:56:42
You bet! Just make sure you use the right size enclosure recommended for this sub at that power range. The larger the enclosure, the better your low bass extension will be, but sacrificing some power handling before X-max is reached.
I am not that familiar with ED subs to date, but would guess a sealed box of 1.0 -1.20 cf (internal) will net very good results. Check their specs first though. After looking at the spec sheet, 1.0 cf looks like a good blend of power and net good low end bass.
Swez
SPECS:
Driver Name : e12A.22
Available Voice Coils : Dual 2 ohm
Recommended Power Range : 750/1400 watts
Recommended Applications : Sealed / Vented
Rec. Box Sizes : Sealed (0.7-1.2cF), Vented (1.4-1.8cF)
Enclosure Specs: http://www.edesignaudio.com/im2/boxcuts/12%20rec%20sealed.jpg
uochronos on 02/21/2004 19:29:51
ok hehe one last question i'm set on a single speaker now that i know i well get the same quality sound... but what about 12" vs. 15"? obviosly a 15" has more air it could push and it well most likly hit lower. for an SQ aplication though would it be able to keep up with the 12"? i have heard very few 15" speakers and i dont belive i have ever heard a 15" then one exactly like it but a 12" so i cant make a very good comparison myself
swez on 02/22/2004 11:24:36
A 12" will usually do a pretty good job at punping out good SPL and SQ bass if there is adequate amp power and the enclosure is well matched to the sub.
When using 15's, you can expect lower bass extension, loads of SPL and good SQ if the box is correct. A 15" sub will often handle a bit more power, have more X-max and a higher efficiency rating then a 12" from the same series. Yes, the box will be a bit larger, but your cone area is notably larger and will move more air than a 12.
I use a pair of 10's in my car system now and use a 15" sub in my workshop system. The 15" gets real low and really pound out great SPL & SQ. Will be upgrading to a more efficient sub later and rescalling the box as well. The ED 15" is a consideration as my amp can do 1200 RMS @ 4 ohms bridged and 400 RMS @ 8 ohms/channel. When I crank it up... the whole garage rattles. hehe
Swez
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