Hi, I'm new here, nice to meet everyone. I think I've found the right place for help.
I have these laying around for nothing, unnamed brands:
4x 6.5 3-way speakers 4ohm
4x 6x9 4-way speakers 4ohms
2x 10" subs
2x 12" subs
I want to make a 5.2 Home system as below:
2x 6x9 = Center
6.5+6x9 = each of 2 fronts
6.5+10" = each of 2 rears
2x 12" = 2 subs
So in total, I'll have 5 speakers and 2 subs for the home system. Each speakers will have 2 drivers (car speakers). I know that I need to bridge them together so that I'll only have one set of Banana input for each of the speaker box so that I'll be able to to the 5.1 receiver. Building the box is easy, but I've never done this type of conversion before and I heard that you need some kind of crossover circuits for your speakers to work with normal home receiver. I have this Pioneer 5.1 receiver that I bought.
Please help me out.
Thanks
kay
Replies (7)
swez on 02/6/2004 21:27:22
Welcome to our play house! CLAP
I think I would configure the system like this:
Front Stage: L&R, 1x10" woofer and 6.5" (wire in series for an 8 ohm load) You may need a 12dB/octave, passive filter crossover on these to protect the 6.5's from too much low end bass/SPL.
Center: A pair of 6x9's (series here too... 8 ohm load, mids and highs filter only)
Rear Stage: Only the 6.5" (if that amp channel can take 4 ohms) Otherwise, use the 6x9's in series with 6.5's. A high pass filter is a good idea here too.
Subs: 2x12's wired for proper ohmic load to sub amp section. Your subs will only do the low end bass.
The trick here, is to balance all component sets so you have accurate staging and proper ohmic loads to each amp channel.
The front stage is full range. The Center stage is usually only mids and highs. The rear stage is midrange but no bass here. Just ambient fill to compliment the front & center stages. The subs are for your deep lows only. (25- 100 Hz) is a good place to start on sub filtering.
Do you see the logic in this configuration? The 6x9's are probably your weakest link as 3-4 way versions use very cheap crossovers, mids, tweeters and perhaps a super tweeter. They also tend to be the most efficient and overpower other speakers in the same box. This will be the challenge... to balance all your drivers and use a good EQ to tone down the "hot spots" that are commom with 6x9's and cheaper coaxial drivers.
Does this make sense to you? A lot more details will be passed back and forth as you develop a plan on what you wish to do. We Have some pretty sharp guys here to help out too. COFFEE
Swez
nkcd on 02/6/2004 23:53:26
Thanks, you explaination make it easier for me to imagine.
So in series, I'll be connection the - of one speaker to the + of the other one, that'll leave a + on the one and a - on the other one to be connected to the receiver?
Also, can you please explain what is 12dB/octave, passive filter crossover on these to protect the 6.5's from too much low end bass/SPL? Is that something I have to build or I can buy it somewhere else.
Moreover, these will be safe on the Pioneer 5.1 Home theater receiver right? I mean the one they sells in Circuit City for $200 or I should invest in a better one. I've experienced it on my old home system and heard many good reviews on that one.
thanks again
swez on 02/7/2004 10:13:17
Yes, series is as you noted and it looks like this in a diagram:
Red .........+wwwww -........+wwwww -.......... Black terminals on amp.
A 12dB/octave filter is a simple, yet effective way to protect small cone speakers from too much low bass energy. (SPL) It can be made or bought and consist of a capacitor and coil. This is commonly called a 2nd order filter network.
In your application, you can do well with a 6dB/ octave filter device which is nothing more than a non-polorized capcitor of a given value, that is connected to your mid/high speakers to block, low frequencies. The value of the cap is determined by the ohmic load of the speaker and the frequency we wish to block out. It looks like this:
Red......+woofer -.......(cap filter).......+Midrange -.....Black
This Pioneer receiver you have, did you get an install manual with it? It should give you some basic configuration recommendations and tell the specs on the amplifier section of unit. We'll need to determine if these amps can take a 4 ohm load or must remain at 8 ohms. Some can do 4 ohms safetly.... others will not like a load below 8 ohms. If you don't have that infor handy, the model # will help you get one from Pioneer web site in .pdf format.
Since you may be new to some of this "jargon" and such, if we pass one by you that does not compute... just ask for clarification. (as you already have on filters)
Now, this will take some time to pull all this together and get it to sound good too. Are you able to build your own enclosures for the Front stage, Center channel, Rear channels and Subs? If you have some woodworking skills and tools... great! If not, hope there are a few friends around that can help out.
Finally, may I suggest we break this larger project down into several smaller tasks and use a check list approach to keep on track with each phase of the process.
How does that sound to you?
Swez
nkcd on 02/8/2004 15:59:49
thanks, It's very helpful. Now all I got to do is to determine what values of cap + coil I should use.
I checkd the specs on the receiver, they're 8ohms, so wiring the speakers in series should be okay :)
My brother + my dad are in the home improvement fields, and they have all the tools I need. So they can help me out with the project. :)
Btw, do you have any suggestions to the box designs? I mean i have a few in mind, but always welcome new + better ideas.
btw, thanks again Swez.
swez on 02/8/2004 22:28:19
Good... we're going along fine so far on this project.
1. Front stage boxes:
a. Since you will be using a 10" sub and a 6.5" full range, you need to use a minimum face width of 12", probably total height of 18" - 20" and depth will vary with the internal cf requirements of the sub. Most 10" subs will be fine in a 0.75 cf (+/- 10%) sealed box.
The sub chamber will most likely be 12" W x 12" H x 11" D externally, if you use 1/2" thickness panels. Can adjust the H & D dimensions a tad if needed. But the "H" will need to be 12" or taller. This nets a moderately wide box, a taller "H" and a shallow "D" ratio. Then, you have a separate chamber on or incorporated into the sub enclosure as you wish. Really depends on space you have to work with and how tall you want your 6.5" speakers to stand off the floor. Best to have it at or near ear level to your target sitting location.
Do you have the brand name and model #'s of these 10's?
b. Since you have a full range speaker in this box as well, need to physically, sonically isolate it from the woofer. An internal baffle panel should be adequate so that each driver (sub/full range) have their own air space. Or, you can build pod enclosures for the 6.5's that are much smaller and rest atop each 10" sub enclosure. Great for imagining as you can pan/swivel the full range speakers for best central imaging
NOTE: Bass waves are pretty strong at high output levels and can distort the full range cone movement if full range is not isolated well from subs. (In same enclosure)
c. As for the crossover, lets's go with a -6db/octave slope here initially. They blend well as the slope is more gradual and easier to match up drivers. In this application, here's the poop on cap fiter choices:
Highpass Filtering:
To determine the crossover frequency a certain amount of capacitance will give you, use the formula:
F = 0.159/(C x Rh)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation of Terms:
C= .....is the capacitance value (in Farads)
.........(1Farad = 1,000,000 uF)
Rh =...is speaker impedance (usually 2, 4 or 8 ohms)
F =.....is the crossover frequency
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freq.......8 Ohms...........4 Ohms
Hz).......(uF)................(uF)...
80..........248................497....
***100........198................397....
A cap filter in the range of 400 - 500 uF for your 6.5" full range will be sufficient. The cap is electrolytic, non-polorized and should be 30 ~ 50 Volts rated. A 400uF cap would be a good option here for all your filter needs below 100 Hz. (Front stage 6.5", Center Stage 6x9's and Rear Stage fill)
Here: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=027-376&DID=7
===================================================
Also, depending the 10" woofer characteristics, we may need to insert a low pass filter here, to block frequencies above 100 Hz, to the 10" woofers. This would be a coil type filter. Will have too look up what that value is for a 4 ohm woofer in a crossover cookbook. Will advise later.
Are you hanging in there so far? There's more to this HT stuff than most people realize. How large of a listening room do you have for this system? Width, length, depth and ceiling height?
Whew.... time for a break,
Swez
nkcd on 02/11/2004 20:09:23
Thanks a lot swez. I just have an update.
There's this Circuit City store that is closing near my place so I went and get myself a pair of MTX Monitor12 Speakers for half price (200 bucks) and an MTX SW2 sub (100 bucks). The sub connects just fine since its wattage is exactly the same requirement as the Pioneer Receiver 100 watts RMS/MAX.
However, the Speakers are 250RMS/500Max each. I played them, they sound nice. But the question is that, will it does any damage to my receiver?
The receiver's specs are: 5.1, 5x100watts for the 5 speakers, and 100 watts max for the sub. That mean I'll only be able to drive the 2 speakers to 100 watts max and the receiver will be okay right?
Also, I'll keep investing and learning on how to build the speakers as mentioned above as well.
Again, thanks a lot swez.
erikcooper on 02/12/2004 00:29:44
It will not harm the receiver, depending on how the subs were made it could possibly let them overheat. The sub channel is 100w max or RMS? If it is max then it isn't even getting that much.
I have these laying around for nothing, unnamed brands:
4x 6.5 3-way speakers 4ohm
4x 6x9 4-way speakers 4ohms
2x 10" subs
2x 12" subs
I want to make a 5.2 Home system as below:
2x 6x9 = Center
6.5+6x9 = each of 2 fronts
6.5+10" = each of 2 rears
2x 12" = 2 subs
So in total, I'll have 5 speakers and 2 subs for the home system. Each speakers will have 2 drivers (car speakers). I know that I need to bridge them together so that I'll only have one set of Banana input for each of the speaker box so that I'll be able to to the 5.1 receiver. Building the box is easy, but I've never done this type of conversion before and I heard that you need some kind of crossover circuits for your speakers to work with normal home receiver. I have this Pioneer 5.1 receiver that I bought.
Please help me out.
Thanks
kay
Replies (7)
swez on 02/6/2004 21:27:22
Welcome to our play house! CLAP
I think I would configure the system like this:
Front Stage: L&R, 1x10" woofer and 6.5" (wire in series for an 8 ohm load) You may need a 12dB/octave, passive filter crossover on these to protect the 6.5's from too much low end bass/SPL.
Center: A pair of 6x9's (series here too... 8 ohm load, mids and highs filter only)
Rear Stage: Only the 6.5" (if that amp channel can take 4 ohms) Otherwise, use the 6x9's in series with 6.5's. A high pass filter is a good idea here too.
Subs: 2x12's wired for proper ohmic load to sub amp section. Your subs will only do the low end bass.
The trick here, is to balance all component sets so you have accurate staging and proper ohmic loads to each amp channel.
The front stage is full range. The Center stage is usually only mids and highs. The rear stage is midrange but no bass here. Just ambient fill to compliment the front & center stages. The subs are for your deep lows only. (25- 100 Hz) is a good place to start on sub filtering.
Do you see the logic in this configuration? The 6x9's are probably your weakest link as 3-4 way versions use very cheap crossovers, mids, tweeters and perhaps a super tweeter. They also tend to be the most efficient and overpower other speakers in the same box. This will be the challenge... to balance all your drivers and use a good EQ to tone down the "hot spots" that are commom with 6x9's and cheaper coaxial drivers.
Does this make sense to you? A lot more details will be passed back and forth as you develop a plan on what you wish to do. We Have some pretty sharp guys here to help out too. COFFEE
Swez
nkcd on 02/6/2004 23:53:26
Thanks, you explaination make it easier for me to imagine.
So in series, I'll be connection the - of one speaker to the + of the other one, that'll leave a + on the one and a - on the other one to be connected to the receiver?
Also, can you please explain what is 12dB/octave, passive filter crossover on these to protect the 6.5's from too much low end bass/SPL? Is that something I have to build or I can buy it somewhere else.
Moreover, these will be safe on the Pioneer 5.1 Home theater receiver right? I mean the one they sells in Circuit City for $200 or I should invest in a better one. I've experienced it on my old home system and heard many good reviews on that one.
thanks again
swez on 02/7/2004 10:13:17
Yes, series is as you noted and it looks like this in a diagram:
Red .........+wwwww -........+wwwww -.......... Black terminals on amp.
A 12dB/octave filter is a simple, yet effective way to protect small cone speakers from too much low bass energy. (SPL) It can be made or bought and consist of a capacitor and coil. This is commonly called a 2nd order filter network.
In your application, you can do well with a 6dB/ octave filter device which is nothing more than a non-polorized capcitor of a given value, that is connected to your mid/high speakers to block, low frequencies. The value of the cap is determined by the ohmic load of the speaker and the frequency we wish to block out. It looks like this:
Red......+woofer -.......(cap filter).......+Midrange -.....Black
This Pioneer receiver you have, did you get an install manual with it? It should give you some basic configuration recommendations and tell the specs on the amplifier section of unit. We'll need to determine if these amps can take a 4 ohm load or must remain at 8 ohms. Some can do 4 ohms safetly.... others will not like a load below 8 ohms. If you don't have that infor handy, the model # will help you get one from Pioneer web site in .pdf format.
Since you may be new to some of this "jargon" and such, if we pass one by you that does not compute... just ask for clarification. (as you already have on filters)
Now, this will take some time to pull all this together and get it to sound good too. Are you able to build your own enclosures for the Front stage, Center channel, Rear channels and Subs? If you have some woodworking skills and tools... great! If not, hope there are a few friends around that can help out.
Finally, may I suggest we break this larger project down into several smaller tasks and use a check list approach to keep on track with each phase of the process.
How does that sound to you?
Swez
nkcd on 02/8/2004 15:59:49
thanks, It's very helpful. Now all I got to do is to determine what values of cap + coil I should use.
I checkd the specs on the receiver, they're 8ohms, so wiring the speakers in series should be okay :)
My brother + my dad are in the home improvement fields, and they have all the tools I need. So they can help me out with the project. :)
Btw, do you have any suggestions to the box designs? I mean i have a few in mind, but always welcome new + better ideas.
btw, thanks again Swez.
swez on 02/8/2004 22:28:19
Good... we're going along fine so far on this project.
1. Front stage boxes:
a. Since you will be using a 10" sub and a 6.5" full range, you need to use a minimum face width of 12", probably total height of 18" - 20" and depth will vary with the internal cf requirements of the sub. Most 10" subs will be fine in a 0.75 cf (+/- 10%) sealed box.
The sub chamber will most likely be 12" W x 12" H x 11" D externally, if you use 1/2" thickness panels. Can adjust the H & D dimensions a tad if needed. But the "H" will need to be 12" or taller. This nets a moderately wide box, a taller "H" and a shallow "D" ratio. Then, you have a separate chamber on or incorporated into the sub enclosure as you wish. Really depends on space you have to work with and how tall you want your 6.5" speakers to stand off the floor. Best to have it at or near ear level to your target sitting location.
Do you have the brand name and model #'s of these 10's?
b. Since you have a full range speaker in this box as well, need to physically, sonically isolate it from the woofer. An internal baffle panel should be adequate so that each driver (sub/full range) have their own air space. Or, you can build pod enclosures for the 6.5's that are much smaller and rest atop each 10" sub enclosure. Great for imagining as you can pan/swivel the full range speakers for best central imaging
NOTE: Bass waves are pretty strong at high output levels and can distort the full range cone movement if full range is not isolated well from subs. (In same enclosure)
c. As for the crossover, lets's go with a -6db/octave slope here initially. They blend well as the slope is more gradual and easier to match up drivers. In this application, here's the poop on cap fiter choices:
Highpass Filtering:
To determine the crossover frequency a certain amount of capacitance will give you, use the formula:
F = 0.159/(C x Rh)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation of Terms:
C= .....is the capacitance value (in Farads)
.........(1Farad = 1,000,000 uF)
Rh =...is speaker impedance (usually 2, 4 or 8 ohms)
F =.....is the crossover frequency
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freq.......8 Ohms...........4 Ohms
Hz).......(uF)................(uF)...
80..........248................497....
***100........198................397....
A cap filter in the range of 400 - 500 uF for your 6.5" full range will be sufficient. The cap is electrolytic, non-polorized and should be 30 ~ 50 Volts rated. A 400uF cap would be a good option here for all your filter needs below 100 Hz. (Front stage 6.5", Center Stage 6x9's and Rear Stage fill)
Here: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=027-376&DID=7
===================================================
Also, depending the 10" woofer characteristics, we may need to insert a low pass filter here, to block frequencies above 100 Hz, to the 10" woofers. This would be a coil type filter. Will have too look up what that value is for a 4 ohm woofer in a crossover cookbook. Will advise later.
Are you hanging in there so far? There's more to this HT stuff than most people realize. How large of a listening room do you have for this system? Width, length, depth and ceiling height?
Whew.... time for a break,
Swez
nkcd on 02/11/2004 20:09:23
Thanks a lot swez. I just have an update.
There's this Circuit City store that is closing near my place so I went and get myself a pair of MTX Monitor12 Speakers for half price (200 bucks) and an MTX SW2 sub (100 bucks). The sub connects just fine since its wattage is exactly the same requirement as the Pioneer Receiver 100 watts RMS/MAX.
However, the Speakers are 250RMS/500Max each. I played them, they sound nice. But the question is that, will it does any damage to my receiver?
The receiver's specs are: 5.1, 5x100watts for the 5 speakers, and 100 watts max for the sub. That mean I'll only be able to drive the 2 speakers to 100 watts max and the receiver will be okay right?
Also, I'll keep investing and learning on how to build the speakers as mentioned above as well.
Again, thanks a lot swez.
erikcooper on 02/12/2004 00:29:44
It will not harm the receiver, depending on how the subs were made it could possibly let them overheat. The sub channel is 100w max or RMS? If it is max then it isn't even getting that much.
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