I just got my alternator changed on my car 3 months ago... dont know what type to be honest... but when my system is hitting hard my lights dim and my car wants to turn off.. my amp is also getting drained too.. the battery is putting out enough power.. what is the problem here?? i think i need a new battery but i wanted some people opinions and thoughts on this? thanks tweeter
Replies (29)
EMINEM427 on 05/1/2003 13:04:39
You might want to add a capacitor to your system. It stores up power and when the bass hits it releases it to even out your power surges. This should take care of the problem with your lights dimming. Is your car starting ok or is it having troubles starting? If you car is having trouble starting, I would suggest getting a new battery. If it starts fine but has trouble keeping power while running than this most likely is your alternator. The alternator that you purchased may have been bad or needed rebuilt. There are auto parts stores that you can take your alternator and they will test it for you and tell you if it is good or not. Another option is too look into getting a bigger alternator for your car. Depending on your system it might not be putting out enough voltage for your car and stereo.
Buickman94 on 05/1/2003 15:39:56
Before you look into getting a cap, there are a few things you need to look at. First find out how many amps your alternator is putting out and how many CCA (cold cranking amps) your bat. is rated at. Your amp draws from alternator first, and whtever that cant cover, your battery picks up. Then add up all the fuses on your amp(s) to see what the max draw is, ie 3 40 amp fuses = 120amps. If this number is close to or higher then what ur alternator is putting out, you should consider upgrading your electrical system before you choose to use a cap.
Swez on 05/1/2003 21:41:42
FORGET THE CAP IDEA... A REAL WASTE OF $$ AS YOUR REAL PROBLEM IS INSUFFICIENT CURRENT CAPACITY FROM THE POWER PLANT... BAT/ALT AND WIRING.
Sounds like your ALT/BAT combo cannot keep up with amplifier current draw for very long, when lights and accessories are running.
Do your know what amperage rating the new ALT was? Also, as noted before , what id the CCA rating of your present battery?
You can go to most decent autoparts stores and have them test the ALT and Bat output levels for you. If the battery is older than say 4 years old... may be time for a new one. Don't match the stock one with same to replace. Get a new one that has a larger CCA rating... say 750+ Cold Cranking Amps.
Say more about your amp(s)... what ya got there now and how many amps does it draw at full power? Adding up all the amp fuses will give you a rough idea.
There are a few other tricks... but answer these ?'s first, before we take you on down the primrose path.
Swez
PS What kind of vehicle are you driving here?
schlsux on 05/2/2003 12:14:40
i dont understand, how do u upgrade you electrical system. In my car I have a new battery and alt, but still had the same problems as this guy. Not as extrem, but the cap helped out a lot.
Swez on 05/2/2003 12:18:09
Caps are useful as a cheap bandaid fix to the root issue... not enought watts (volts x current) to power the entire system. Caps will give a short burst of power when the amp calls for more current, but this is only temporary.
A 1 Farad cap has about as much storage capacity as 1/2,000,000 of a 800 CCA rated battery. It does work for minor light diming issues on modest amps... but if we have an 85A. ALT, a 600 CCA rated battery and drawing 120 amperes of current (or more) from the system, no cap in the world will cure that mismatch.
The Alt will work overtime, the battery will also discharge rapidly and the electrical system will eventually crap out altogether. A few major battery discharges will kill a typical start battery in very short order. (deep cycle batteries can take this kind of punishment)
Most newer cars will begin to react when system voltage goes below ~10.0 volts. Once you get to ~9.5 volts, the engine will die and not start unless you get a jump.
The proper solution... upgrade to a large enough ALT/BAT to keep up with all electrical demands. Replacing the stock power wires between ALT/BAT & BAT/GND is also recommended as most stock wires are only #6-8 gage wire.
Swez
PS You can pay the guy now, or pay the guy later... but for sure... you will pay eventually if running the system chronically under power.
GT_man on 05/4/2003 23:17:20
swez....ive always disagreed with you on this one.....Caps are useful to alot of people...i mean who wants to spend $200 for a high output alt, and another $50 for a 800CCA bat? i mean yea me and you do BUT most people arnt looking for a compotition system...they just want it to sound good, and a cap will fix light dimming problems, good cheap fix, $40 for a 1 fraud cap at Circut City, and thatll handle upto 1000 watt amps.
i also disagree with the term "cheap bandaid fix" because this is not a bandaid fix...this is a fix for the problem, it works and thats all that really matteres to most people.
(ps swez i really respect you and all of your views...your a really smart guy and you know what your talking about when it comes to car audio.. im not trying to start a fight....a debate...maybe but a friendley one :-D )
megahurts4 on 05/4/2003 23:29:45
$200!!?!???!! for a high output alternator???? Where are you looking?! heh, sorry to say it's no where near $200. I wish. Mine's costing me about $550.
I've sided with Swez on this. I will cut my wrists before I even consider a cap, let alone recommend one. They just add to the headaches of an electrical system in a demanding song.
xplicitblitzboi on 05/5/2003 01:40:46
ummmm, you dont necessarily always have to replace the alty, just upgrading the wiring and the battery will do wonders, beleive me, ask buick and swez, we had a huge debate on HO altys and somewhat a little side debate on caps. you dont need a HO alty for your amp, but i still agree that a cap will fix some problems.
A HO alty is always a good option, but wiring and a good DC battery will do wonders. a cap has its uses, but its not a permenant solution.
GT_man on 05/5/2003 02:24:21
holy crap......$550? i got quoted like $230 or smuttin for a 150amp alt for a 1999 taho from a shop down here (a rebuilt alt tho) ive never heard of $550 for ANY alt. but ummm ok :-D
Swez on 05/5/2003 07:22:35
GT-Man,
It's OK if you disagree with me on this subject. I did not say that Caps will not help minor system voltage sags... but they don't solve the root cause of the problem... excess current depletion.... the amp is drawing so much current that it steals all the ALT/BAT output capacity in the process.
This in turn, works the ALT overtime (shortens life of the ALT) and when the battery gets so low on voltage and the car shuts down, the battery will not last very long unless we use a Deep Cycle version.
The DC batteries can take constant discharges and come back smiling after a good trickle charge. The standard start battery will die in short order after a few major discharges... even if new... a few deep discharges and the battery will be toast.
Want to do some reading about electrical systems and how Caps work? Have a look at this and then tell us your comments OK? It's a long read... but well worth the time. Mr. B is well experienced in products, technical and has installed some pretty neat stuff in his days. A bit verbose... but he does drive the point home with solid research and facts on the subject. We worked together to compose this FAQ for guys who want to get it right the first time out.
Have a look: I've posted the link and copied the text for those who care to know more on this hotly debated subject.
http://pub51.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
FAQ-CAPS, the Truth about Caps & Dogs
After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?
Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.
A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.
WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?
As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )
Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).
Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.
As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.
Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.
Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:
WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?
Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:
www.eatel.net/~amptech/el...raudio.htm
Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.
WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?
The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.
WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?
Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens
When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.
HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?
1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads
For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.
Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.
IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?
My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.
Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT
In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.
Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, “..The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged…” I’m not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)
SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?
1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..
Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it’s over.
HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?
They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?
IN A NUTSHELL.......
When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.
WHY?
In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.
STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?
Here's the Original Cap Debate.
www.carsound.com/ubb/Arch...00307.html
Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.
Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.
In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself.
Enjoy the reading, then we can debate thing more if you wish.
Swez
blacktallon2000 on 05/5/2003 18:33:01
Would adding a yellowtop battery seperately for the sound system fix ALL electrical problems. 'Cause if it will why not just tell people to do that instead of going back and forth on caps. So far the anti- cap crowd are ahead if you ask me. I bought two a while back and are planning to sell them to some unsuspecting cap junkie(hey the dealer did it to me)
Buickman94 on 05/5/2003 18:52:27
adding a dedicated battery for just your sound system isnt a bad idea, it can just become a hastle. if you just throw a battery in your trunk for your amps, it will drain pretty fast unless you have your alternator recharging it. If you do, your still going to need a high output alternator or a seperate one to be able to put out enough power to recharge 2 batteries, dont count on your stock alt being able to do this...
unless you plan on competing in SPL competitions, theres really no need for major upgrades like this. Upgrading to a high CCA battery and upgrading wiring should take care of most problems. A HO alternator is also justified im some cases.
-mike
Swez on 05/5/2003 19:53:36
Exactly and well stated Buickman... If you simply added a 2nd battery (Yellow Top or other Deep Cycle battery) to an existing system, the ALT will work even harder to charge 2 (or more) batteries and power all electricals too. A severe strain now.
Most guy in SPL comps use a dedicated power supply.. Ie: a 2nd HO ATL, heavy gage (2/0 or bigger) wire and a bank of HIGH CCA rated Deep Cycle batteries) This power the amps and all high current devices.
Some cheat a bit and just use a bank of batteries and do their burbs, then charge the bank up again, for the next round.
Odd, we are doing all the chatting but no comments for the initial author. Are you reading all this garble there Allegrini? Shure hope so.
See what you started? hehe
Swez
allegrini_35 on 05/13/2003 09:44:12
ahahahaha sorry...... well its a good topic to talk about.. its interesting on what different people have to talk about on this topic....
Swez on 05/17/2003 20:41:09
All this bantering about... do you have any new insights as to what you will do next?
The easiest strategy would be to take this in small steps. If you present car start battery is <700 CCA rated, it will probably die soon if you keep draining it so low.
Here, a Yellow Top (Deep Cycle) battery of say 870 CCA http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/optima.html
as your start and audio amp power source, this should do pretty well and can take many recharge cycles. (>2000) Not cheap and can use other brands as well. I have read that NAPA offers a similar product and cost much less too. It is probably made by Optima, but has NAPA brand... Check here:
http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/NAPAonline/homepage.d2w/report
Also, adding a larger gage wire set between ALT/BAT and BAT/GND may help as most stock wire is #6-8 gage. Use #4 here and just replace old with new wire size. Most good auto parts stores have these right off the shelf. May need truck type HD wires here.
Finally, if all else fails to give the desired results, a HO ALT is your last resort. Depending on the vehicle you have, it may be very easy to go from a 105A alt to a 165A version. Many GM Alts are same form & fit, so they drop right in... just more output. A rebuilt will be much cheaper than new and usually come with long warrantee plans.
Recently bought a 105A for my Mom's Buick and it was only $66.00. Could have bought a 165A version for a tad under $100.00 w/ core exchange, but she did not need a HO ALT on this vehicle. No HD audio gear in this land yacht.
Swez
STRATUS225 on 11/26/2003 10:12:26
Well, being new to the site I'm not sure if this advice is going to go very far, but here are a couple of tips for at least figuring out where to start with the problem. Since most electrical draw problems do start with the altenator, the first thing you want to figure out is whether or not your altenator is large enough to handle your systems needs and your vehicle needs at the same time. There is a simple way to do this.
to calculate the current draw of your amps, you would have to multiply the number of channels by the RMS watts per channel. If you have more than one amp, then figure each one out seperately and add them up at the end. Double the total and then divide by 13.8. (this is the average # of volts and altenator produces). The result is your audio systems approx current draw in amperes.
Second, you want to figure out your reserve current capacity. To do this, you would take your altenators amp rating (usually stated on the side of the altenator) and multiply it by 40% (0.4). This will give an idea of you vehicles electrical system reserve capacity. If this number is higher than your estimated current draw in step one, all is good. If not, you may need to upgrade the altenator even if its new.
On the capacitor issue, I know more about a vehicles electrical system than i do about the actual audio end of things, but caps generally will help when hooked directly to the sub amp for the headlight dimming issue. A capacitor does a better job of supplying SHORT bursts of energy than an altenator can, the current doesnt have to overcome the internal resistance of the altenator and the battery or travel through X amount of feet of wire to get to your amp. Personally, i hooked one up for the same reason (headlights dimming slightly on hard bass notes) and the dimming issue went away. I dont think it was coincidence. Also seemed to help with slight alt whine in the system. And installing a second battery only helps if you play your stereo with the engine off. A battery's main purpose is to start the car.
I know i'm going to get rebuttal on this Swez. Different opinions are always good...........
Pinch on 11/26/2003 11:24:27
Thinking back to all the graphs and curves that've been force fed into my noggin at school, I do not believe caps are the expensive tire chalks many say they are. 1 Farad is a big number to throw into the equation for the RC time constant of a system (which is represented by the greek tau and basically determines the slope of the voltage vs. time curve). With no capacitance in the equation, the graph would look like a cutaway side view of you driving over the grand canyon. With a cap however, it takes longer for the voltage to drop per each unit of time. Thus, the slope is less dramatic. The problem is, people think that a cap will do all this without any help from extra equipment. No. Current cannot be manifested from nothing and everyone is still governed by the stamp on their alternator (s). How about a real world example. You've got a pump sucking water from some underground water reserve. This pump is rated to push so many gallons of water down a pipe each minute. Now, this pipe goes from the pump to a some guys house where it supplies him with water to fill water balloons or do whatever with. And he's happy. Now, a family moves in next door and they put a tap on his pipe and use that same supply for their water needs. Repeat this process until you've got a whole city block drawing from this one poor unfortunate pump. Not gonna happen. To help the situation, somebody installs a huge tank, and they re-route all the pipes so that people draw from the tank, which is supplied by the pump. So now, the pump can just fill the tank all day, and people can fill their water balloons all they want. But what happens when everyone is filling water balloons, and they for some reason all decide to flush their toilets at the same time. The problem is that the tank cannot drain fast enough to meet the sudden demand of the people down stream. To cope, somebody installs another tank with a massive floodgate that'll dump a ton of water downstream when demand rises. Did this fix the problem? Well, no. Everyone is after all still governed by the number of gallons per minute that pump can squirt out. But did it help? Absolutely. With the added reservoire, the system can more effeciently meet the demands of the people down stream. Provided they get an adequate pump, they'll be happy for years to come.
STRATUS225 on 11/26/2003 12:44:04
Well put pinch. I'm still waiting for another response from Swez...... I'm noticing, looking at past debates and being new to the site that I dont think there will ever be conclusive evidence one way or another on this debate of alt vs cap. Being a service manager at a dealership, all of my electrical techs figure it the same way i do, make sure the alt is in good working condition, (perform an avr test on it with all functions of the vehicle on) and start there. A capacitor is not a fix for major electrical issues with a vehicle, merely a way of helping the vehicle cope with added demand on the electrical system.
ttocs on 11/26/2003 13:46:42
the problem is that the cap will help keep the voltage from dropping at large voltage spikes, but it does NOTHING for current. Voltage and current are related, but totally different. amps are current driven devises, not voltage...
Swez is movin into the high life in florida and will be gone for a little while..
Swez on 12/9/2003 09:20:57
High life in thed flatlands of Florida? Hardly... but very good research and comments on this topic so far.
Call me stubborn if you like, but I have never used a cap and never will for car applications as mentioned. Caps are fine for minimal light dimmimg issues and it will pick up the voltage sags from periodic bass hits.
Caps are used in large current motor start applications... Ie: refrigeration, compressors, HVAC and such... but these only supply a short burst to get things moving and reduce the large inrush currents a large motor can draw. Same concept with CAPS in Car Audio Applications. Just offers a short term burst to keep the voltage up to par for the larger bass hits. BUT... if we have a cronic underpowered system... no CAP in the world is designed to cope with that.
It's like running a 1 Megawatt light source with a few penlight (AAA) batteries... might work for a few seconds... then poof, the light goes out and the batteries are dead... period!
For Pete's sake... somebody please run a demo test and proof this one out for all. For those who believe a Cap is appropriate... let them go and do so. Those who side on a better power source... let them enjoy their cake as others get stranded with a dead BAT or ALT.
Really, we covered it all here... if Rich Clark and Dave Navone (inventors of the AUDIO SURGE CAP) say they don't make the cut... I'll take their word on same.
Nuff said here for me, (my CAP is exhausted and needs recharging)
Swez
Pinch on 12/9/2003 11:24:21
I believe that the real test would be to look at the frequency response of one system w/ a cap (AND a HO alt + High CCA batt) and one w/o the cap (but still had the HO alt and High CCA batt). I'd bet a buck to a bent dime the cap would serve its purpose there. In that case, the cap would have sufficient juice to charge it and the charging system would get a break from the spikes imposed on it from the amp.
Pinch
cplkittle on 12/9/2003 11:42:44
if you had a HO alt and a high CCA, why would you need a cap?
the debate is HOalt and high CCA battery V/S cap.
ericp on 01/20/2005 01:01:16
Victor on 01/20/2005 06:35:31
WOW.. this sure is one of the longest post I have seen on CK..lol..
CAPS when compared to Alt/Batt are nothing but CrAP.
I would blow of this whole post if the reason for argument is a baseless comparison..
The comparison made here stands of no importance.. because a capacitor can NEVER EVER be compared to a battery and alt upgrade...
Swez i really gotta appreciate your patience for the kind of explanations you wrote..hehe..
Victor...
swez on 01/20/2005 13:07:37
Well, hehe we obviously have some polarization on this topic huh? And like I said on every post, "A CAP [CAN HELP] WITH MINOR LIGHT DIMMING PROBLEMS".
However, when running a system with chronic power depeation, something has to give, sooner or later. Either the amp will fry as it tries to pull the current it needs, the ALT will peter out as it is constantly over worked, or the BAT will eventually fail as it was not designed for this type of use.
BTW, don't take my word for it. For the real poop, see what the designers of this product have to say. Afterall, they designed it, made it, tested it and now recant their position. If these braniacs say CAPS are of limited use, I believe them. SMILE
Nuff said,
Swez
PS As Rush Limbaugh says... "With talents on loan from God".... am giving you all my best inputs. USFLAG
Victor on 01/20/2005 20:16:56
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/capacitor.htm
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/battery.htm
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/capacitor/
http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm
http://www.mdpublishing.com/MedicalDealer/BioMedToday/101/03/Dec.htm
PLSR80 on 12/26/2008 00:03:42
ONE THING NO ONE HAS DISCUSSED IS WIRE SIZE. MAKE SURE YOUR POWER CABLES ARE SUFFICIENTLY SIZED TO (AMPERAGE BEING DRAWN) AND DISTANCE. BIGGER IS BETTER, LESS RESISTANCE! ADDING A SECOND BATTERY IN THE TRUNK AND DUAL BAT. ISOLATOR UNDER THE HOOD WILL ALSO HELP GIVE YOUR ALTERNATOR A BREAK TILL YOU CAN SWAP IT OUT. IT WILL HAVE TO BE DONE ANY HOW WHEN UPGRADING THE CHARGING SYSTEM. IF YOU SIMPLY WIRE THE BATTERIES IN PARALLEL THEN YOU ARE DOUBLING YOUR DRAW. (SO DON'T) THE BATTERY ISOLATOR MAINTAINS THE VOLTAGE OF BOTH BATTERIES AND WOULD RARELY TAKE ON BOTH LOADS AT THE SAME TIME.
I HAVE A 94 PLYMOUTH ACCLAIM THAT WAS DOING THE SAME THING. I HAVE THE STOCK 45/90 AMP ALTERNATOR A RED TOP OPTIMA UNDER THE HOOD AND ONE IN THE TRUNK CONNECTED WITH #2 WIRE AND A I FARAD CAP FEEDING A KICKER ZRX 460 AND A PLANET AUDIO 400.2 AMPLIFIER.
14.25 VOLTS, POUNDIN HARD, AND WITHOUT THE LIGHTS SHOW!
cplkittle on 12/26/2008 05:51:12
This post must hit on google alot, it seems to resurface every 2 or 3 years.
aone7706 on 04/2/2009 11:19:04
I can't comment on it. My puny amp doesn't draw like that to make lights dim or anything like that. I just bought a cap because
1) I like to see the look on people's faces while they are looking at it.
2) I like to get the question, "What is that, a bomb?"
3) I just like how it looks important with really no purpose at all.
4) When people ask what it is, I like to look & sound smart when I feed them the same lines that a dealer would.
Replies (29)
EMINEM427 on 05/1/2003 13:04:39
You might want to add a capacitor to your system. It stores up power and when the bass hits it releases it to even out your power surges. This should take care of the problem with your lights dimming. Is your car starting ok or is it having troubles starting? If you car is having trouble starting, I would suggest getting a new battery. If it starts fine but has trouble keeping power while running than this most likely is your alternator. The alternator that you purchased may have been bad or needed rebuilt. There are auto parts stores that you can take your alternator and they will test it for you and tell you if it is good or not. Another option is too look into getting a bigger alternator for your car. Depending on your system it might not be putting out enough voltage for your car and stereo.
Buickman94 on 05/1/2003 15:39:56
Before you look into getting a cap, there are a few things you need to look at. First find out how many amps your alternator is putting out and how many CCA (cold cranking amps) your bat. is rated at. Your amp draws from alternator first, and whtever that cant cover, your battery picks up. Then add up all the fuses on your amp(s) to see what the max draw is, ie 3 40 amp fuses = 120amps. If this number is close to or higher then what ur alternator is putting out, you should consider upgrading your electrical system before you choose to use a cap.
Swez on 05/1/2003 21:41:42
FORGET THE CAP IDEA... A REAL WASTE OF $$ AS YOUR REAL PROBLEM IS INSUFFICIENT CURRENT CAPACITY FROM THE POWER PLANT... BAT/ALT AND WIRING.
Sounds like your ALT/BAT combo cannot keep up with amplifier current draw for very long, when lights and accessories are running.
Do your know what amperage rating the new ALT was? Also, as noted before , what id the CCA rating of your present battery?
You can go to most decent autoparts stores and have them test the ALT and Bat output levels for you. If the battery is older than say 4 years old... may be time for a new one. Don't match the stock one with same to replace. Get a new one that has a larger CCA rating... say 750+ Cold Cranking Amps.
Say more about your amp(s)... what ya got there now and how many amps does it draw at full power? Adding up all the amp fuses will give you a rough idea.
There are a few other tricks... but answer these ?'s first, before we take you on down the primrose path.
Swez
PS What kind of vehicle are you driving here?
schlsux on 05/2/2003 12:14:40
i dont understand, how do u upgrade you electrical system. In my car I have a new battery and alt, but still had the same problems as this guy. Not as extrem, but the cap helped out a lot.
Swez on 05/2/2003 12:18:09
Caps are useful as a cheap bandaid fix to the root issue... not enought watts (volts x current) to power the entire system. Caps will give a short burst of power when the amp calls for more current, but this is only temporary.
A 1 Farad cap has about as much storage capacity as 1/2,000,000 of a 800 CCA rated battery. It does work for minor light diming issues on modest amps... but if we have an 85A. ALT, a 600 CCA rated battery and drawing 120 amperes of current (or more) from the system, no cap in the world will cure that mismatch.
The Alt will work overtime, the battery will also discharge rapidly and the electrical system will eventually crap out altogether. A few major battery discharges will kill a typical start battery in very short order. (deep cycle batteries can take this kind of punishment)
Most newer cars will begin to react when system voltage goes below ~10.0 volts. Once you get to ~9.5 volts, the engine will die and not start unless you get a jump.
The proper solution... upgrade to a large enough ALT/BAT to keep up with all electrical demands. Replacing the stock power wires between ALT/BAT & BAT/GND is also recommended as most stock wires are only #6-8 gage wire.
Swez
PS You can pay the guy now, or pay the guy later... but for sure... you will pay eventually if running the system chronically under power.
GT_man on 05/4/2003 23:17:20
swez....ive always disagreed with you on this one.....Caps are useful to alot of people...i mean who wants to spend $200 for a high output alt, and another $50 for a 800CCA bat? i mean yea me and you do BUT most people arnt looking for a compotition system...they just want it to sound good, and a cap will fix light dimming problems, good cheap fix, $40 for a 1 fraud cap at Circut City, and thatll handle upto 1000 watt amps.
i also disagree with the term "cheap bandaid fix" because this is not a bandaid fix...this is a fix for the problem, it works and thats all that really matteres to most people.
(ps swez i really respect you and all of your views...your a really smart guy and you know what your talking about when it comes to car audio.. im not trying to start a fight....a debate...maybe but a friendley one :-D )
megahurts4 on 05/4/2003 23:29:45
$200!!?!???!! for a high output alternator???? Where are you looking?! heh, sorry to say it's no where near $200. I wish. Mine's costing me about $550.
I've sided with Swez on this. I will cut my wrists before I even consider a cap, let alone recommend one. They just add to the headaches of an electrical system in a demanding song.
xplicitblitzboi on 05/5/2003 01:40:46
ummmm, you dont necessarily always have to replace the alty, just upgrading the wiring and the battery will do wonders, beleive me, ask buick and swez, we had a huge debate on HO altys and somewhat a little side debate on caps. you dont need a HO alty for your amp, but i still agree that a cap will fix some problems.
A HO alty is always a good option, but wiring and a good DC battery will do wonders. a cap has its uses, but its not a permenant solution.
GT_man on 05/5/2003 02:24:21
holy crap......$550? i got quoted like $230 or smuttin for a 150amp alt for a 1999 taho from a shop down here (a rebuilt alt tho) ive never heard of $550 for ANY alt. but ummm ok :-D
Swez on 05/5/2003 07:22:35
GT-Man,
It's OK if you disagree with me on this subject. I did not say that Caps will not help minor system voltage sags... but they don't solve the root cause of the problem... excess current depletion.... the amp is drawing so much current that it steals all the ALT/BAT output capacity in the process.
This in turn, works the ALT overtime (shortens life of the ALT) and when the battery gets so low on voltage and the car shuts down, the battery will not last very long unless we use a Deep Cycle version.
The DC batteries can take constant discharges and come back smiling after a good trickle charge. The standard start battery will die in short order after a few major discharges... even if new... a few deep discharges and the battery will be toast.
Want to do some reading about electrical systems and how Caps work? Have a look at this and then tell us your comments OK? It's a long read... but well worth the time. Mr. B is well experienced in products, technical and has installed some pretty neat stuff in his days. A bit verbose... but he does drive the point home with solid research and facts on the subject. We worked together to compose this FAQ for guys who want to get it right the first time out.
Have a look: I've posted the link and copied the text for those who care to know more on this hotly debated subject.
http://pub51.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic
FAQ-CAPS, the Truth about Caps & Dogs
After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?
Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.
A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.
WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?
As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )
Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).
Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.
As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.
Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.
Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:
WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?
Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:
www.eatel.net/~amptech/el...raudio.htm
Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.
WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?
The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.
WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?
Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens
When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.
HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?
1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads
For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.
Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.
IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?
My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.
Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT
In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.
Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, “..The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged…” I’m not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)
SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?
1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..
Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it’s over.
HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?
They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?
IN A NUTSHELL.......
When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.
WHY?
In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.
STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?
Here's the Original Cap Debate.
www.carsound.com/ubb/Arch...00307.html
Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.
Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.
In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself.
Enjoy the reading, then we can debate thing more if you wish.
Swez
blacktallon2000 on 05/5/2003 18:33:01
Would adding a yellowtop battery seperately for the sound system fix ALL electrical problems. 'Cause if it will why not just tell people to do that instead of going back and forth on caps. So far the anti- cap crowd are ahead if you ask me. I bought two a while back and are planning to sell them to some unsuspecting cap junkie(hey the dealer did it to me)
Buickman94 on 05/5/2003 18:52:27
adding a dedicated battery for just your sound system isnt a bad idea, it can just become a hastle. if you just throw a battery in your trunk for your amps, it will drain pretty fast unless you have your alternator recharging it. If you do, your still going to need a high output alternator or a seperate one to be able to put out enough power to recharge 2 batteries, dont count on your stock alt being able to do this...
unless you plan on competing in SPL competitions, theres really no need for major upgrades like this. Upgrading to a high CCA battery and upgrading wiring should take care of most problems. A HO alternator is also justified im some cases.
-mike
Swez on 05/5/2003 19:53:36
Exactly and well stated Buickman... If you simply added a 2nd battery (Yellow Top or other Deep Cycle battery) to an existing system, the ALT will work even harder to charge 2 (or more) batteries and power all electricals too. A severe strain now.
Most guy in SPL comps use a dedicated power supply.. Ie: a 2nd HO ATL, heavy gage (2/0 or bigger) wire and a bank of HIGH CCA rated Deep Cycle batteries) This power the amps and all high current devices.
Some cheat a bit and just use a bank of batteries and do their burbs, then charge the bank up again, for the next round.
Odd, we are doing all the chatting but no comments for the initial author. Are you reading all this garble there Allegrini? Shure hope so.
See what you started? hehe
Swez
allegrini_35 on 05/13/2003 09:44:12
ahahahaha sorry...... well its a good topic to talk about.. its interesting on what different people have to talk about on this topic....
Swez on 05/17/2003 20:41:09
All this bantering about... do you have any new insights as to what you will do next?
The easiest strategy would be to take this in small steps. If you present car start battery is <700 CCA rated, it will probably die soon if you keep draining it so low.
Here, a Yellow Top (Deep Cycle) battery of say 870 CCA http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/optima.html
as your start and audio amp power source, this should do pretty well and can take many recharge cycles. (>2000) Not cheap and can use other brands as well. I have read that NAPA offers a similar product and cost much less too. It is probably made by Optima, but has NAPA brand... Check here:
http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/NAPAonline/homepage.d2w/report
Also, adding a larger gage wire set between ALT/BAT and BAT/GND may help as most stock wire is #6-8 gage. Use #4 here and just replace old with new wire size. Most good auto parts stores have these right off the shelf. May need truck type HD wires here.
Finally, if all else fails to give the desired results, a HO ALT is your last resort. Depending on the vehicle you have, it may be very easy to go from a 105A alt to a 165A version. Many GM Alts are same form & fit, so they drop right in... just more output. A rebuilt will be much cheaper than new and usually come with long warrantee plans.
Recently bought a 105A for my Mom's Buick and it was only $66.00. Could have bought a 165A version for a tad under $100.00 w/ core exchange, but she did not need a HO ALT on this vehicle. No HD audio gear in this land yacht.
Swez
STRATUS225 on 11/26/2003 10:12:26
Well, being new to the site I'm not sure if this advice is going to go very far, but here are a couple of tips for at least figuring out where to start with the problem. Since most electrical draw problems do start with the altenator, the first thing you want to figure out is whether or not your altenator is large enough to handle your systems needs and your vehicle needs at the same time. There is a simple way to do this.
to calculate the current draw of your amps, you would have to multiply the number of channels by the RMS watts per channel. If you have more than one amp, then figure each one out seperately and add them up at the end. Double the total and then divide by 13.8. (this is the average # of volts and altenator produces). The result is your audio systems approx current draw in amperes.
Second, you want to figure out your reserve current capacity. To do this, you would take your altenators amp rating (usually stated on the side of the altenator) and multiply it by 40% (0.4). This will give an idea of you vehicles electrical system reserve capacity. If this number is higher than your estimated current draw in step one, all is good. If not, you may need to upgrade the altenator even if its new.
On the capacitor issue, I know more about a vehicles electrical system than i do about the actual audio end of things, but caps generally will help when hooked directly to the sub amp for the headlight dimming issue. A capacitor does a better job of supplying SHORT bursts of energy than an altenator can, the current doesnt have to overcome the internal resistance of the altenator and the battery or travel through X amount of feet of wire to get to your amp. Personally, i hooked one up for the same reason (headlights dimming slightly on hard bass notes) and the dimming issue went away. I dont think it was coincidence. Also seemed to help with slight alt whine in the system. And installing a second battery only helps if you play your stereo with the engine off. A battery's main purpose is to start the car.
I know i'm going to get rebuttal on this Swez. Different opinions are always good...........
Pinch on 11/26/2003 11:24:27
Thinking back to all the graphs and curves that've been force fed into my noggin at school, I do not believe caps are the expensive tire chalks many say they are. 1 Farad is a big number to throw into the equation for the RC time constant of a system (which is represented by the greek tau and basically determines the slope of the voltage vs. time curve). With no capacitance in the equation, the graph would look like a cutaway side view of you driving over the grand canyon. With a cap however, it takes longer for the voltage to drop per each unit of time. Thus, the slope is less dramatic. The problem is, people think that a cap will do all this without any help from extra equipment. No. Current cannot be manifested from nothing and everyone is still governed by the stamp on their alternator (s). How about a real world example. You've got a pump sucking water from some underground water reserve. This pump is rated to push so many gallons of water down a pipe each minute. Now, this pipe goes from the pump to a some guys house where it supplies him with water to fill water balloons or do whatever with. And he's happy. Now, a family moves in next door and they put a tap on his pipe and use that same supply for their water needs. Repeat this process until you've got a whole city block drawing from this one poor unfortunate pump. Not gonna happen. To help the situation, somebody installs a huge tank, and they re-route all the pipes so that people draw from the tank, which is supplied by the pump. So now, the pump can just fill the tank all day, and people can fill their water balloons all they want. But what happens when everyone is filling water balloons, and they for some reason all decide to flush their toilets at the same time. The problem is that the tank cannot drain fast enough to meet the sudden demand of the people down stream. To cope, somebody installs another tank with a massive floodgate that'll dump a ton of water downstream when demand rises. Did this fix the problem? Well, no. Everyone is after all still governed by the number of gallons per minute that pump can squirt out. But did it help? Absolutely. With the added reservoire, the system can more effeciently meet the demands of the people down stream. Provided they get an adequate pump, they'll be happy for years to come.
STRATUS225 on 11/26/2003 12:44:04
Well put pinch. I'm still waiting for another response from Swez...... I'm noticing, looking at past debates and being new to the site that I dont think there will ever be conclusive evidence one way or another on this debate of alt vs cap. Being a service manager at a dealership, all of my electrical techs figure it the same way i do, make sure the alt is in good working condition, (perform an avr test on it with all functions of the vehicle on) and start there. A capacitor is not a fix for major electrical issues with a vehicle, merely a way of helping the vehicle cope with added demand on the electrical system.
ttocs on 11/26/2003 13:46:42
the problem is that the cap will help keep the voltage from dropping at large voltage spikes, but it does NOTHING for current. Voltage and current are related, but totally different. amps are current driven devises, not voltage...
Swez is movin into the high life in florida and will be gone for a little while..
Swez on 12/9/2003 09:20:57
High life in thed flatlands of Florida? Hardly... but very good research and comments on this topic so far.
Call me stubborn if you like, but I have never used a cap and never will for car applications as mentioned. Caps are fine for minimal light dimmimg issues and it will pick up the voltage sags from periodic bass hits.
Caps are used in large current motor start applications... Ie: refrigeration, compressors, HVAC and such... but these only supply a short burst to get things moving and reduce the large inrush currents a large motor can draw. Same concept with CAPS in Car Audio Applications. Just offers a short term burst to keep the voltage up to par for the larger bass hits. BUT... if we have a cronic underpowered system... no CAP in the world is designed to cope with that.
It's like running a 1 Megawatt light source with a few penlight (AAA) batteries... might work for a few seconds... then poof, the light goes out and the batteries are dead... period!
For Pete's sake... somebody please run a demo test and proof this one out for all. For those who believe a Cap is appropriate... let them go and do so. Those who side on a better power source... let them enjoy their cake as others get stranded with a dead BAT or ALT.
Really, we covered it all here... if Rich Clark and Dave Navone (inventors of the AUDIO SURGE CAP) say they don't make the cut... I'll take their word on same.
Nuff said here for me, (my CAP is exhausted and needs recharging)
Swez
Pinch on 12/9/2003 11:24:21
I believe that the real test would be to look at the frequency response of one system w/ a cap (AND a HO alt + High CCA batt) and one w/o the cap (but still had the HO alt and High CCA batt). I'd bet a buck to a bent dime the cap would serve its purpose there. In that case, the cap would have sufficient juice to charge it and the charging system would get a break from the spikes imposed on it from the amp.
Pinch
cplkittle on 12/9/2003 11:42:44
if you had a HO alt and a high CCA, why would you need a cap?
the debate is HOalt and high CCA battery V/S cap.
ericp on 01/20/2005 01:01:16
Victor on 01/20/2005 06:35:31
WOW.. this sure is one of the longest post I have seen on CK..lol..
CAPS when compared to Alt/Batt are nothing but CrAP.
I would blow of this whole post if the reason for argument is a baseless comparison..
The comparison made here stands of no importance.. because a capacitor can NEVER EVER be compared to a battery and alt upgrade...
Swez i really gotta appreciate your patience for the kind of explanations you wrote..hehe..
Victor...
swez on 01/20/2005 13:07:37
Well, hehe we obviously have some polarization on this topic huh? And like I said on every post, "A CAP [CAN HELP] WITH MINOR LIGHT DIMMING PROBLEMS".
However, when running a system with chronic power depeation, something has to give, sooner or later. Either the amp will fry as it tries to pull the current it needs, the ALT will peter out as it is constantly over worked, or the BAT will eventually fail as it was not designed for this type of use.
BTW, don't take my word for it. For the real poop, see what the designers of this product have to say. Afterall, they designed it, made it, tested it and now recant their position. If these braniacs say CAPS are of limited use, I believe them. SMILE
Nuff said,
Swez
PS As Rush Limbaugh says... "With talents on loan from God".... am giving you all my best inputs. USFLAG
Victor on 01/20/2005 20:16:56
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/capacitor.htm
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/battery.htm
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/capacitor/
http://www.4unique.com/battery/battery_tutorial.htm
http://www.mdpublishing.com/MedicalDealer/BioMedToday/101/03/Dec.htm
PLSR80 on 12/26/2008 00:03:42
ONE THING NO ONE HAS DISCUSSED IS WIRE SIZE. MAKE SURE YOUR POWER CABLES ARE SUFFICIENTLY SIZED TO (AMPERAGE BEING DRAWN) AND DISTANCE. BIGGER IS BETTER, LESS RESISTANCE! ADDING A SECOND BATTERY IN THE TRUNK AND DUAL BAT. ISOLATOR UNDER THE HOOD WILL ALSO HELP GIVE YOUR ALTERNATOR A BREAK TILL YOU CAN SWAP IT OUT. IT WILL HAVE TO BE DONE ANY HOW WHEN UPGRADING THE CHARGING SYSTEM. IF YOU SIMPLY WIRE THE BATTERIES IN PARALLEL THEN YOU ARE DOUBLING YOUR DRAW. (SO DON'T) THE BATTERY ISOLATOR MAINTAINS THE VOLTAGE OF BOTH BATTERIES AND WOULD RARELY TAKE ON BOTH LOADS AT THE SAME TIME.
I HAVE A 94 PLYMOUTH ACCLAIM THAT WAS DOING THE SAME THING. I HAVE THE STOCK 45/90 AMP ALTERNATOR A RED TOP OPTIMA UNDER THE HOOD AND ONE IN THE TRUNK CONNECTED WITH #2 WIRE AND A I FARAD CAP FEEDING A KICKER ZRX 460 AND A PLANET AUDIO 400.2 AMPLIFIER.
14.25 VOLTS, POUNDIN HARD, AND WITHOUT THE LIGHTS SHOW!
cplkittle on 12/26/2008 05:51:12
This post must hit on google alot, it seems to resurface every 2 or 3 years.
aone7706 on 04/2/2009 11:19:04
I can't comment on it. My puny amp doesn't draw like that to make lights dim or anything like that. I just bought a cap because
1) I like to see the look on people's faces while they are looking at it.
2) I like to get the question, "What is that, a bomb?"
3) I just like how it looks important with really no purpose at all.
4) When people ask what it is, I like to look & sound smart when I feed them the same lines that a dealer would.
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