Some folks believe that any old wire will run their speakers, while other will swear by "wire strands", twisted cables, and shielding (which is sometimes worse than not). With the number of companies touting the "best" wires for your speakers, what truely is important?
I have always believed that the purer copper wiring, the lower the resistance in the line; the higher # of strands, the more effiecient the wire. However, it seems like advertising has made a mess speaker wiring and are pushing items that may not be necessary. I question whether some people can even distinguish differences in different 12/14 gauge wires. Am I out of line, or simply stating the obvious?
As I look to buy wire for 4 speakers running 120 RMS (but lets face it, there's a fair amount of overhead for day to day running), I can't help but feel that some of these 12 or 14 gauge wires aren't necesary and are over hyped. Any thoughts?
Replies (16)
Relax_The_Mind on 01/29/2004 06:41:43
In this day and age most every product comes with a parade of marketing strategies. Just like most people out there they go by what they hear or see.
Your statement of wiring efficiency is true... If anything the best thing to do is research what you want and need (which is easy via internet) more on a technical level... as in a more unbiased view.
Wiring... purer copper = better transfer for obvious reasons from the lack of resistive impurities. Higher number of strands...given the type of signals used. The signals (through one strand) travel on the outer surfaces called "skin effect" because of the higher resistance in the center of the wire.
All of which dont really apply to audio in the "high fidelity" sense.
The efficiency loss of most "cheap wiring" is negligable and the signal frequencies of the audio isnt high enough to be bothered by the "skin effect"
The only reason I can really see high end wiring is if it was a digital signal where low signal loss is crucial.
Hehe "Digital Audio" i think is an oxymoron... high fidelity audio transferred and amplified in a digital state to produce as close to an "Analog" signal as possible. It should be called "Digitally controlled Audio"
Definately over hyped...then again do you want real skinny 16/18 awg wires strung around your car with the possibility of stretching and crimping? Not to mention its easier to work with pretty and cool looking colors and shiny stuff. Oh yeh forgot to mention the bragging rights of how many strands they have.
RTM
PS. Holy "quotes"
Bone on 01/29/2004 09:08:58
RTM - "yep"
Really appreciate it. Since I have come back I have been on a fast learning curve and surprised by what has happened to the industry. All I need is some solid tinned wiring so the job will last a bit longer. I guess it seemed simpler before, but with so many choices and gimics, it didn't know if it'd missed some evolutionary step in speaker wiring, or if some of this stuff was BS. On the plus side, there are a whole lot more products to look at and test, which has always been half the fun.
Gotta admit, the colors are pretty cool. I will probably succumb to that, but wanted to make sure my money went toward what is needed, not what is hyped. Is there much of a difference in speaker wire quality between Stinger, Lightning audio, Monster cable, Streetwires, or (I even looked up) Karma/KASA wiring?
I'm sure some will swear by one or another, but if the field is pretty level it makes me less concerned on missing a quality buy.
cplkittle on 01/29/2004 09:43:21
My cousin (the true definition of redneck) just put a system in his blazer that consisted of 2 JBL 10GTi subs and a 1200.1 amp. His design is that of an industrial nature, so he went out to home depot and purchased 20' of 4/2 house wire (2x4gauge solid copper wire) it isn't pretty, but it only cost around $17.
I agree, cosmetics is 3/4 the price. I have always wondered why you would run 8gauge speaker wire a distance of 1-2' when onthe back of the speaker terminal it drops down to 12-14gauge to feed the voice coils. Not only that, why use gold connections? Let's start at the battery and go to the voice coils... lead->gold->copper->HU->gold RCA terminals->copper RCA wires->gold RCA terminals->(repeat if going through an EQ)->gold->copper->gold->copper. Are we speeding up that much with an overall length of gold being around 2" ?
erikcooper on 01/29/2004 14:25:10
Check out this webpage that swez often tells about.
www.knukonceptz.com
Bone on 01/29/2004 13:38:15
When gold plated rca came out I was pretty excited. Gold was far more conductive than the prior terminal materials, and seemed a stronger metal than its alternatives. If the copper was properly guarded against oxidation, terminating in gold meant less resistance over time and a better long-term install. Now, as I look at all the gold plated attachments, I just shake my head.
Lotts of install work I see runs copper wire with an exposed connection to gold prongs. So while the copper oxidizes, complimented by heat, the gold connector ends up having a lower resistance than the wire itself. In this scenario, I can't justify gold plugs.
Tinning a wire terminating into gold would be the best way to go. For folks not protecting the copper, gold is just a short term novelty. The more I see this occur though, I will not be suprised when palladium starts showing up on all high end wire at a premium cost.
I have to admire your cousin's approach to car audio. He seems to know exactly where he wants to put his money.
Bone on 01/29/2004 22:32:39
RTM/CPL/Erik
What are you gents running from your amps to your front and rear sound stages? Are any of you running CDTs? I thought Erik was in the works.................
uochronos on 01/30/2004 00:16:54
i have the CDT HD-62CF and i'm running 12gauge Monster cable threw the whole system... more of a preference then anything else i run monster cable to all my audio products home and car. stuff is durable as hell and easy to strip. not the prettiest stuff but not the most expensive either i got 50feet for like 20$ i think on sale at best buy... only down fall is the only differnce between the wires is one wire has "monster cable" written on it every 6 inches. which means you have to pay attention to positive negative alot more. cant tell you how many speakers i have hooked up in reverse because its not clearly differnt.
erikcooper on 01/30/2004 00:17:05
I have CDTs but they are not up and running yet. uochronos has some running I believe. I have 0 gauge for my power, of course it will have to be downsized before the amp... it only takes 4 AWG. I am probably going to run 4 or 8 to my subs and maybe ?12? to my CDTS and midbass drives.
erikcooper on 01/30/2004 00:18:06
yea, i was right, uo posted while i was typing and confirmed what i thought.
Bone on 01/30/2004 08:28:32
I had many of my speakers show up yesterday and the avionix amp. Erik, by the way, I got the AB600.4 instead of the T800.4 after having about a half hour conversation with one of the techs.
The CDT HD-642's and 62EF's include a total of 3 passive crossovers. Here is my debate:
If I leave the crossovers in the trunk I am going to be running an insane amount of speaker wire. I am considering 10 awg to the crossovers and 12 awg to the speakers because of the distance in my car to wire forward from the trunk will probably be 8-10 feet. But should I have the crossovers in the front of the vehicle and avoid 4x12 awg wires running down each side of my car (instead just one 10 awg thread to crossovers in the front)?
UO, thank you for your input on monster cable. Do you have any thoughts/experience with other wire manufacturers? Erik, I was looking at that site and liked quite a bit of what I saw, but hadn't heard much about the brands before.
erikcooper on 01/30/2004 11:04:56
Swez introduced me to it and I think most will agree that he is one of the most knowledge filled Golds here on the site. He could give you more info.
uochronos on 01/30/2004 11:31:18
for speaker wire i have always just used monster wire so not alot of experience with anything else. for power wires i have always been fond of phoenix gold wire but thats mainly because i live here in portland and have a hook up down at the Phoenix Gold HQ... so i can get it for basicaly nothing. as long as i'm willing to wait for him to get it for me.
as far as where to put your crossovers i personaly put mine for the front speakers in the kick pannels which left me with like 3 feet or so of wire to run. not the best place to put them if you want to be able to see them but it works if you just want them in a convieniant spot.
cplkittle on 01/30/2004 12:55:53
I use the cheapest autozone speaker wire I can find to be honest with you. in 30 years when my cheap copper speaker wire corrodes, I will replace it, and still only pay 10% of what you would if you bought oxygen free. But I am cheap like that.
Monster cable, Stinger, and Tsunami are the hot brands right now, and all are priced as such.
On the other hand, I am now running stinger pro insulated RCA wires which is a big jump over the auto zone brands, other than Tsunami, which they now carry.
Back to my redneck cousin with the industrial box though.. He ran 1/4" stainless tubing for speaker wire. so your options are endless.
Bone on 01/30/2004 15:27:52
Damn, I really like this site :)
I think the crossovers are going in front, it's just easier and will cost less in wire. Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your help and insight.
ckoscin2 on 01/31/2004 03:14:38
i have 16 awg wire from stinger going from my amp in the trunk to my door speaker with 50w rms. stinger is some ok stuff, but www.knukonceptz.com has some good prices !!! 1/0 awg in stinger at local shop is like $3.50 a foot and knukonceptz is only $2.25 i think. i also got the 4 awg amp kit from knukonceptz and it cam with some 12 awg wire it seems to be pritty thick. and i like to say i got my wire from knukonceptz when my friends look at me and say whats that? they dont know about the site.
as for comp's i have diamond audio m6 comps. i love them and they sound so nice. with my crossovers in door.
Relax_The_Mind on 01/31/2004 03:29:14
I used a little higher quality at a cheaper price kind of deal www.KnuKonceptz.com stuff... #1 looks cool the ground is silver and the positive is blue. #2 All the stuff (speaker wires/ power cables/ RCA/ posts) cost me $20 to be shipped to my house. Supposedly 100% oxygen free and had lots of strands.
A note about gold. I have never been a big fan of gold terminals but I still use them for other reasons. I was pretty upset when radio shack got rid of a lot of the older electronics and started carrying gold plated everything. They are NOT a much better conductor than copper...I mean its plated so whats the difference. The main function of it is that it doesnt corrode like copper (also why 100% oxygen free is kind of ok) does from simply sitting there in air (corrosion from being exposed to oxygen-oxidized) So if your not messing with your wires all the time and you air tight the rest of the cables your fine on the corrosion part.
As for sound stage i have old school infinity kappas recycled free from a nice camaro i saw in junk yard...(shhh but i tell people i bought them). Running them off the head unit.
So i guess my conlcusion on the whole deal is make your choice on the above specs based on it lasting longer rather than difference in sound quality.
Oxygen free - tape or heatshrink end connections (after you properly crimp them of course) - never hurts to spray anti-corrosion spray (especially if you scraped paint to ground your amp...bare metal does rust) unless of course you have goldenized terminals.
So if you buy cheap wire you can goldenize it with simple household products. ;-)
RTM
I have always believed that the purer copper wiring, the lower the resistance in the line; the higher # of strands, the more effiecient the wire. However, it seems like advertising has made a mess speaker wiring and are pushing items that may not be necessary. I question whether some people can even distinguish differences in different 12/14 gauge wires. Am I out of line, or simply stating the obvious?
As I look to buy wire for 4 speakers running 120 RMS (but lets face it, there's a fair amount of overhead for day to day running), I can't help but feel that some of these 12 or 14 gauge wires aren't necesary and are over hyped. Any thoughts?
Replies (16)
Relax_The_Mind on 01/29/2004 06:41:43
In this day and age most every product comes with a parade of marketing strategies. Just like most people out there they go by what they hear or see.
Your statement of wiring efficiency is true... If anything the best thing to do is research what you want and need (which is easy via internet) more on a technical level... as in a more unbiased view.
Wiring... purer copper = better transfer for obvious reasons from the lack of resistive impurities. Higher number of strands...given the type of signals used. The signals (through one strand) travel on the outer surfaces called "skin effect" because of the higher resistance in the center of the wire.
All of which dont really apply to audio in the "high fidelity" sense.
The efficiency loss of most "cheap wiring" is negligable and the signal frequencies of the audio isnt high enough to be bothered by the "skin effect"
The only reason I can really see high end wiring is if it was a digital signal where low signal loss is crucial.
Hehe "Digital Audio" i think is an oxymoron... high fidelity audio transferred and amplified in a digital state to produce as close to an "Analog" signal as possible. It should be called "Digitally controlled Audio"
Definately over hyped...then again do you want real skinny 16/18 awg wires strung around your car with the possibility of stretching and crimping? Not to mention its easier to work with pretty and cool looking colors and shiny stuff. Oh yeh forgot to mention the bragging rights of how many strands they have.
RTM
PS. Holy "quotes"
Bone on 01/29/2004 09:08:58
RTM - "yep"
Really appreciate it. Since I have come back I have been on a fast learning curve and surprised by what has happened to the industry. All I need is some solid tinned wiring so the job will last a bit longer. I guess it seemed simpler before, but with so many choices and gimics, it didn't know if it'd missed some evolutionary step in speaker wiring, or if some of this stuff was BS. On the plus side, there are a whole lot more products to look at and test, which has always been half the fun.
Gotta admit, the colors are pretty cool. I will probably succumb to that, but wanted to make sure my money went toward what is needed, not what is hyped. Is there much of a difference in speaker wire quality between Stinger, Lightning audio, Monster cable, Streetwires, or (I even looked up) Karma/KASA wiring?
I'm sure some will swear by one or another, but if the field is pretty level it makes me less concerned on missing a quality buy.
cplkittle on 01/29/2004 09:43:21
My cousin (the true definition of redneck) just put a system in his blazer that consisted of 2 JBL 10GTi subs and a 1200.1 amp. His design is that of an industrial nature, so he went out to home depot and purchased 20' of 4/2 house wire (2x4gauge solid copper wire) it isn't pretty, but it only cost around $17.
I agree, cosmetics is 3/4 the price. I have always wondered why you would run 8gauge speaker wire a distance of 1-2' when onthe back of the speaker terminal it drops down to 12-14gauge to feed the voice coils. Not only that, why use gold connections? Let's start at the battery and go to the voice coils... lead->gold->copper->HU->gold RCA terminals->copper RCA wires->gold RCA terminals->(repeat if going through an EQ)->gold->copper->gold->copper. Are we speeding up that much with an overall length of gold being around 2" ?
erikcooper on 01/29/2004 14:25:10
Check out this webpage that swez often tells about.
www.knukonceptz.com
Bone on 01/29/2004 13:38:15
When gold plated rca came out I was pretty excited. Gold was far more conductive than the prior terminal materials, and seemed a stronger metal than its alternatives. If the copper was properly guarded against oxidation, terminating in gold meant less resistance over time and a better long-term install. Now, as I look at all the gold plated attachments, I just shake my head.
Lotts of install work I see runs copper wire with an exposed connection to gold prongs. So while the copper oxidizes, complimented by heat, the gold connector ends up having a lower resistance than the wire itself. In this scenario, I can't justify gold plugs.
Tinning a wire terminating into gold would be the best way to go. For folks not protecting the copper, gold is just a short term novelty. The more I see this occur though, I will not be suprised when palladium starts showing up on all high end wire at a premium cost.
I have to admire your cousin's approach to car audio. He seems to know exactly where he wants to put his money.
Bone on 01/29/2004 22:32:39
RTM/CPL/Erik
What are you gents running from your amps to your front and rear sound stages? Are any of you running CDTs? I thought Erik was in the works.................
uochronos on 01/30/2004 00:16:54
i have the CDT HD-62CF and i'm running 12gauge Monster cable threw the whole system... more of a preference then anything else i run monster cable to all my audio products home and car. stuff is durable as hell and easy to strip. not the prettiest stuff but not the most expensive either i got 50feet for like 20$ i think on sale at best buy... only down fall is the only differnce between the wires is one wire has "monster cable" written on it every 6 inches. which means you have to pay attention to positive negative alot more. cant tell you how many speakers i have hooked up in reverse because its not clearly differnt.
erikcooper on 01/30/2004 00:17:05
I have CDTs but they are not up and running yet. uochronos has some running I believe. I have 0 gauge for my power, of course it will have to be downsized before the amp... it only takes 4 AWG. I am probably going to run 4 or 8 to my subs and maybe ?12? to my CDTS and midbass drives.
erikcooper on 01/30/2004 00:18:06
yea, i was right, uo posted while i was typing and confirmed what i thought.
Bone on 01/30/2004 08:28:32
I had many of my speakers show up yesterday and the avionix amp. Erik, by the way, I got the AB600.4 instead of the T800.4 after having about a half hour conversation with one of the techs.
The CDT HD-642's and 62EF's include a total of 3 passive crossovers. Here is my debate:
If I leave the crossovers in the trunk I am going to be running an insane amount of speaker wire. I am considering 10 awg to the crossovers and 12 awg to the speakers because of the distance in my car to wire forward from the trunk will probably be 8-10 feet. But should I have the crossovers in the front of the vehicle and avoid 4x12 awg wires running down each side of my car (instead just one 10 awg thread to crossovers in the front)?
UO, thank you for your input on monster cable. Do you have any thoughts/experience with other wire manufacturers? Erik, I was looking at that site and liked quite a bit of what I saw, but hadn't heard much about the brands before.
erikcooper on 01/30/2004 11:04:56
Swez introduced me to it and I think most will agree that he is one of the most knowledge filled Golds here on the site. He could give you more info.
uochronos on 01/30/2004 11:31:18
for speaker wire i have always just used monster wire so not alot of experience with anything else. for power wires i have always been fond of phoenix gold wire but thats mainly because i live here in portland and have a hook up down at the Phoenix Gold HQ... so i can get it for basicaly nothing. as long as i'm willing to wait for him to get it for me.
as far as where to put your crossovers i personaly put mine for the front speakers in the kick pannels which left me with like 3 feet or so of wire to run. not the best place to put them if you want to be able to see them but it works if you just want them in a convieniant spot.
cplkittle on 01/30/2004 12:55:53
I use the cheapest autozone speaker wire I can find to be honest with you. in 30 years when my cheap copper speaker wire corrodes, I will replace it, and still only pay 10% of what you would if you bought oxygen free. But I am cheap like that.
Monster cable, Stinger, and Tsunami are the hot brands right now, and all are priced as such.
On the other hand, I am now running stinger pro insulated RCA wires which is a big jump over the auto zone brands, other than Tsunami, which they now carry.
Back to my redneck cousin with the industrial box though.. He ran 1/4" stainless tubing for speaker wire. so your options are endless.
Bone on 01/30/2004 15:27:52
Damn, I really like this site :)
I think the crossovers are going in front, it's just easier and will cost less in wire. Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your help and insight.
ckoscin2 on 01/31/2004 03:14:38
i have 16 awg wire from stinger going from my amp in the trunk to my door speaker with 50w rms. stinger is some ok stuff, but www.knukonceptz.com has some good prices !!! 1/0 awg in stinger at local shop is like $3.50 a foot and knukonceptz is only $2.25 i think. i also got the 4 awg amp kit from knukonceptz and it cam with some 12 awg wire it seems to be pritty thick. and i like to say i got my wire from knukonceptz when my friends look at me and say whats that? they dont know about the site.
as for comp's i have diamond audio m6 comps. i love them and they sound so nice. with my crossovers in door.
Relax_The_Mind on 01/31/2004 03:29:14
I used a little higher quality at a cheaper price kind of deal www.KnuKonceptz.com stuff... #1 looks cool the ground is silver and the positive is blue. #2 All the stuff (speaker wires/ power cables/ RCA/ posts) cost me $20 to be shipped to my house. Supposedly 100% oxygen free and had lots of strands.
A note about gold. I have never been a big fan of gold terminals but I still use them for other reasons. I was pretty upset when radio shack got rid of a lot of the older electronics and started carrying gold plated everything. They are NOT a much better conductor than copper...I mean its plated so whats the difference. The main function of it is that it doesnt corrode like copper (also why 100% oxygen free is kind of ok) does from simply sitting there in air (corrosion from being exposed to oxygen-oxidized) So if your not messing with your wires all the time and you air tight the rest of the cables your fine on the corrosion part.
As for sound stage i have old school infinity kappas recycled free from a nice camaro i saw in junk yard...(shhh but i tell people i bought them). Running them off the head unit.
So i guess my conlcusion on the whole deal is make your choice on the above specs based on it lasting longer rather than difference in sound quality.
Oxygen free - tape or heatshrink end connections (after you properly crimp them of course) - never hurts to spray anti-corrosion spray (especially if you scraped paint to ground your amp...bare metal does rust) unless of course you have goldenized terminals.
So if you buy cheap wire you can goldenize it with simple household products. ;-)
RTM
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