1998 Cadilliac Eldorado
MB Quart, Model No. RFX9220, CD/MP3 Receiver with 3 Pre-Out... 349.00
Two Alpine type R 300 watt rms 12's $378pair
model SWR-1221D
Rockford Fosgate 1000watt mono amplifer $599 dollars model #1001BD
Rockford Fosgate 450watt 2channel amplifier model #451s $249pair
Alpine type 5.25 component 2 of them SPX-137A $329
Sub Zero Sealed box 2 12's $99.99
Lighting Strike 5 meter unterconnect 2 of them for $25 What is that?
1 male to 2 female strile Y $19.00
Dash Kit $10.00
Antadapt Adapter 11.99
Exspert fused DIsturution 59.00
Labor 1,040.00
parts 2,272.99
total
3,483.46
Getting RIPPED OFF??!!
please help
Replies (23)
uochronos on 12/29/2003 00:09:10
well you can definatly get the same or equal products for much lower prices on the net even better gear in some cases for less. and then have them install it the install shyould be about the same price if you find an ok shop. alot of the ones around me well charge more if you dont buy the product from them but i have found a few that charge about the same even if you dont buy the product from them. or better yet install it yourself and save 1000$. the alpine subs alone you can get off ebay for 250$ with shipping for a pair thats how i got mine. and the alpine components for 349$ you can get a pair of cdt components that should be about equal maybe even better for 149.99 on sale from www.thezeb.com right now. just to name a few. hope this helps right there that saves you aroundb 300$ and thats just finding cheaper parts online for 2 of your items listed. oh also lately alot of people have been posting on here about a JBL 1200watt mono amp for i believe around 300$ that would again save you quite a bundle. so just from those 3 things if you had to pay an extra couple hundred in install work you would save about 300$ which to me would be worth it.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 00:27:29
Yes, definatly.
I am posting this for a friend but I fell like he is getting ripped off like crazy. For 3,500 dollars this isn't even that nice of a system.
I would also say the JBL 1200.1 mono amp for about 300
Screw the interior speaker amplifier. You don't even need that the stock deck can easily power the speakers for trebble. He doesn't even need new interior speakers right?
They want 600 dollars for this rockford fosgate amplifier? What are the pros and cons about rockford amps. Compared to the JBL 1200.1 you can't even compare it can you the JBL is much nicer and much cheaper?
Why not the 24.95 dollar 1,000 watt amplifier wiring kit from walmart?
Are these alpine subs even worth it? I am looking for a serious SPL system. Alpine is more SQ I thought. What are some other options?
what is the 1 male to 2 female strile Y $19.00?
what is the Exspert fused DIsturution 59.00?
The caddy has a stock amplifer in it already would it be possible just to keep that amp? They wanted to replace it with a 450 watt rockford fosgate amp and rewire the entire car.
Is it possible to use the stock deck and plug a JBL 1200.1 in to power 2 subs. It has a cd changer in the trunk could we unplug that and plug in the amp? This is in a 1998 Caddy Eldorado
The basic price range we are looking for is 2,000 dollars. But the problem is the stock deck in it is like insanely hard to take out, if your not a pro with all the tools I was told you can't do it.
Sorry for all the questions but there is a lot of money at stake here and I feel this company is trying to take advantage of me.
www.kustomkaraudio.com is the place.
curtis73 on 12/29/2003 01:47:51
Yeah, Not sure about the other stuff, but I just bought a RFX-9210 for $199 from Crutchfield and it came with the installation manual, wiring harness, and DIN-adapter plate for the dash. Free shipping, too, plus their flawless customer service and tech support.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 02:30:15
golds please help
I would reallly appreciate it!
swez on 12/29/2003 06:42:26
Seems to me, have to define what to buy and what to keep as stoc,k for now.
If he just wants bass added to his current system, there are ways to do that with much less cost... buy on line!
If he basically likes the mids and highs from the stock system installed now, can keep all that, buy a sub amp, wiring kit, Line out convertor (for systems w/ integrated amps) a sub enclosure and misc., hardware for a whole lot less.
If he wants to go that route, we can surely save him about 70% of the quoted costs. Labor is something he can do with help. You can help him or direct him here and we can take it from there.
Here's something to chew on:
SUBS:
Alpine SWR-1241D
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=alpswr1241d&svbname=30 $109.00/ea. + S/H
Good source for quality gear at much lower than retail. Many here have used Etronics and very pleased with what they got.
NOTE: This is a 4+4 DVC sub. A pair of these can be wired full parallel for a 1 ohm load. These are rated at 300 RMS per sub, so a huge amp is not needed.
Alternate: Infinity Kappa 4 ohm SVC:
1. http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1458
300 RMS, 4 ohm SVC, a pair in parallel will net 2 ohms and 600 RMS
2. Infinity KAPPA 120.3DVC 4+4 ohm DVC, 300 RMS/sub., full parallel is 1 ohm load to amp
3. Infinity Reference 1230w ...http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1346 Similar to Alpine, but a 4 ohm SVC sub. Takes 300 watts RMS per sub, same box dimensions as Alpine and sells for:
List Price: 120.00
Our Price: $59.00
Don't let the price fool you... I have suggested these subs to many on this and other forums and the reports back are very positive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Box: Recommended Sealed Box Volume: The sealed box sizes recommended by Alpine range from 0.7 cu/ft to 1.0 cu/ft. Within this range, the ideal size recommended by Alpine is 0.85 cu/ft, so this is the enclosure recommended by Crutchfield.
Recommended Vented Box Volume: The vented box sizes recommended by Alpine range from 0.75 cu/ft to 1.75 cu/ft. Within this range, the ideal size recommended by Alpine is 1.25 cu/ft, so this is the enclosure recommended by Crutchfield. One 4" diameter x 13" long port should be used with the 1.25 cu/ft enclosure.
Sealed: H-122LQS Dual 12" Sealed 3/4" MDF Box - 0.88cf per sub $84.99 Sub Zone is a very good prefab enclosure. http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/subzone_universal_sub_boxes.html
Ported: Recommended enclosure is 1.25 cf/sub (internal) May have to make one if he wants to go this route.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WIRING KITS & HARDWARE: http://www.knukonceptz.com/
High quality, very good prices and a very good vendor online.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE OUT CONVERTORS:
http://www.davidnavone.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=N-85V
Am assuming he has Delco/Bose factory amp system installed now. This LOC will do the job.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMPS: The subs noted earlier are 300 RMS/sub and when wired in full parallel, a 600 RMS amp that can do 1 ohm loads is what is needed.
The JBL BP600.1 offers this option. The 1200.1 (1200+ RMS) will shred these subs. Prices on the 600.1 are well below $300.00 off e-bay, Ikesound
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/186
List Price: 400.00
Our Price: $189.00
That took 1.5 hours out of my day to compile this list... but as you can see, add up all the items listed that you like and then compare them to the quote your friend got. The components listed here are equal or superior to what was mentioned in the original post.
The only thing to mention, if your friend elects to go ported on his subs and uses the JBL BP600.1, he may wish to buy a subsonic filtering kit. These are cheap and easy to install as well. (<$30.00/set of 2)
Swez THINK
ttocs on 12/29/2003 10:47:31
a grand for labor???????? I would assume wire and such are in that prices as well but dear god..........
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 12:06:08
Thank you sweZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You solved all of our problems and you saved my freind a lot of money!
I thank you!!!
We will take your advise, and just install sub amps to the exsisting stereo with the parts you listed!
LIFE SAVER!!
My friend has right now two Rockford Fosgate 12 inch HE Punch subwoofers 200watts rms 400watts max. With a RockFord Fosgate 1200watt 2 channel amp running 200watts rms a channel.
It's all brand new but when my friend told the car audio place he got these subs they immediately started bashing on them.
We have a bandpass box we could use for this. It's a standard box, for two 12's witht he ports in all four cornors. Would it be better to go sealed? He has a sealed trunk in his car.
swez on 12/29/2003 12:20:40
The RF gear mentioned should be fine with his stock Bose system. Just enough bass to make things somewhat balanced. Not a perfect matchup (subs & amp) as RF's HE series is 4 ohm SVC and the 2 channel amp cannot take less than 4 ohms when bridged.
His only choice for now, run the amp 2 channel, 1 sub per channel. Losing about 50% of amping power this way, but the subs are 200 watts RMS... so a wash for now. What amp model number is that he has?
Standard Band Pass Box??? Bite your tongue Munchies... hehe sadly, there is no such thing! Unless the BP was designed specifically around the Theil/Small parameters of these subs, you have a crap shoot pending. Could sound tight and punchy (which is good for rock) or full, deep bump... (good for R&B & Jazz) or boomy and muddy... the perfect RAP system. (typical and very bad for most subs)
All I can suggest is trying what you have and see what happens. If the subs sound good in that BP box, use it. If not, can go ported or sealed per RF specs. Sub Zone makes some very good enclosures for RF subs if you wish to look around.
Swez
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 12:45:39
sweezzzz!!
We need to really compeat with some Xtant 500watt rms 12's in a sealed box. When it comes down to it, thats what really needs to be done.
Yes your right the perfect rap machine. My friend is AKA Biggie Smalls but it would be nice to go sealed as you said SMILE I know u said it somewhere in there!!
Will the Alpine/Infinity's beable to compete with Xtant 12 500watt rms subs?
Money is not at all a problem. We are looking at 1,000 - 2,000 dollar range. And we could sell these subs/amp.
Your right, and I don't know what I was thinking when I bought this lame 14.4 volt 1200 """""watt""""" amplifer for a 4 OHM SUbs..
*slaps my self*
Swez I know you probably wanna slap yo momma after listening to this noob stuff but hey! I WILL NEVER IN MY LIFE DO ANYTHING DUMB LIKE BUY A 2 CHANNEL AMP!!! AND NOT ASK YOU GUYS FIRST ABOUT SUBS!
promise!
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 15:36:35
Okay!
We are selling the Subs and Amp it's not a problem to get rid of those. Someone will buy them!
This is what we are going to do. I think we got it figured out. The stock deck we have no idea how to do anything with that. My idea was to take the car into a professional shop have them run the wires and I can put the rest of it together. Subs ect..
Here is the plan we are going to print out what you said Swez, study it like a spelling test and go into the shop and get what you said done!
line out converter, line out converter! I got it! I have no idea how to get behind this deck and I am afraid something will break. This car is too nice to uncle Joe it, so in order to make sure nothing breaks, or goes wrong we will have the line out converter done. I think you need to get behind the deck to do this?
I can run the power cables and ground it thats the easy part!
We are looking at the JBL 1200.1 some subs to match in a sealed box.
I like the suggestions you gave me swez they are GREAT but we have a little more money to spend and looking for some more BOOM BOOM.
We have about 2,000 to spend on subs and amps. So throw some 15's in my face!! ANy ideas? Suggestions?
Please feel free
and SWEZ THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU!!!
I am keeping this page saved for when I need some new subs in the future! Very good advise!
You've helped so much, I saw the light!
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 16:37:02
I am kinda partial to the Pioneer Premire series 12's (TS-W2000SPL) around $120ea.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3067388969&category=18803
Features
- Interlaced Carbon Fiber / Glass Fiber Reinforced IMPP Cone Woofer
- Wide-Roll, 3-Layer Fiber Woven Radial Surround with Honeycomb Cloth
- Double 4-Layer, Long Voice Coil (2 x 4ohm)
- 4-Slit Glass Imide Voice Coil Bobbin
- Conex Damper with Damper Ring
- Projected Pole Yoke with Vented Pole
- Double Stacked Magnets (110 oz.)
- Thick 7/8" (20mm) Top Plate
- Aluminum Die-Cast One-Piece Rigid Chassis
- Silver Binding Posts
- 1-Piece Rubber Gasket
Specifications
- 2000 Watts Max. Music Power
- 750 Watts Nominal Power Handling
- Dual Voice Coil Design (2ohm or 8ohm)
- Frequency Response: 18 - 2kHz
- Sensitivity: 89dB (1W/1m)
- Recommended Enclosure: 1.5 Cubic Feet
Or you could go with a little more serious sub like the JBL W12GTI
http://www.jbl.com/car/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=W12GTI&ser=GTI&cat=SUB
couldn't find it on ebay.. MSRP $599ea
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:03:01
We went down to the store he was being an asshole, because I knew my stuff and wouldn't let him try to put extra things on the bill that was completely not needed.
He insulted you SWEz! He said your line out adaptor was cheap and not even worth using! So I was like Listen, I happen to be very popular in the car stereo industry and I am not liking your attitude. Give us a reasonable offer and stop trying to add things we don't want.
ok so thats what I wanted to say
but I really didn't say anything
But we made out a deal, $2,000 dollars for two Alpine 15's 1500watts rms $350ea in a sealed box. He also wants to put RockFord Fosgate mono block 1,000 watt amplifer $599 dollars model #1001BD. He said that it will run the subs fine. I mentioned that the RockFord amp was garbage using a 14.4 volt to get 1000 watts rms, and why he is putting a lousy 1,000 watt amp for subs that call for 3,000 watts. ( I know 750watts each!! Hammer to the guys forhead) But he claims that many of the RF's run at 12.8 and 13.9 at the most.
Nu uhhh!! I read three golds saying no no no with a slap on the wrist!
Correct me if I am wrong but WHAT is this guy doing? He tells me 1500 watts RMS for nooo they are 750 each. But he doesn't say that he trys to trick my friend. Alpine 15's type R and he wants to use a junky RF 1000 watt mono amplifer for subs that need 750 watts each?
we are missing some JUICE if you ask me!
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:13:27
look at the rating on the subs, they may take a rating as low as 600w, but you are right in the aspect that 1000w @ 14.4 is overrating. Yes, many rf amps run at 12.8 and 13.9 and 10.4 and 8.2 and you get my point, an amp will RUN as long as you put voltage to it, but when you lower the volts, the watts come down as well.
It very well could push those subs enough to make you happy, but you will not be getting the volume you would with an adequately matched amplifier.
$599 for the rf mono 1000w OR $300 for the JBL1200w?
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:22:07
yea but the thing is the guy is a meanie
I asked him if he would order some JBL amps and he gave me a speech about how they came out of the gutter on amps but he still won't order them.
SO I say!! YEA well what if we bring one in? "I can't allow that, I mean you could but we will have to charge you a lot extra to do that and I don't want to be doing warenty on a amp that you order from some store online."
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:20:49
Do keep in mind that they will probably not be able to come close to online prices, especially ebay or closeout deals. They are restricted to their zip code, and have to make money as well. Internet dealers have most of their stuff set up on a computer that tells them when and where to ship what, and they probably have other sources of income as well.
Some good points about having someone sell and install for you is that they should have a lengthier warranty than you can find online, and if something were to go wrong it is their fault, not yours - in most cases.
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:27:00
I understand your frustration. If you want to do it yourself or for your friend, you know we will be here to guide you through it.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:32:33
Yea but it's the entire attitude. He is a salesman and he was acting like one. I guess if thats the only way they can stay alive let it be.
I would be more willing to buy from someone who won't give me a 3,500 dollar quote for something as simple as just needing some subs.
They won't even mention the fact that you can put subs in there without buying their 500 dollar deck.
He tried to tell me that we can't keep the stock speakers because they will blow out with the bass. No sir! Place the bass on ZERO and the TRebble ON +7. Than he says sorry
It's not that I am mad, it's that I am disapointed. He was talking about his reputation like he was at some fancy buffet .
The problem why we couldn't buy online. I don't know how to do this line adapter, and I don't want to have to take this deck out because if it breaks theres not anyways I could afford to fix it.
Anyways my friend is getting it done tomamrow and doesn't even care I saved him 1,500 dollars and selling the old sub and amp he had. They are installing the stereo like tommarow.
Thanks for the help. You all made it a lot easier to get it done.
I am getting a job soon and when I do I look forward to donating to the site!
Thanks cplkittle, thanks swez, thanks uochronos you all helped!
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:44:35
that's what we enjoy doing. stick around, and one day you'll be telling your friend "Don't pay that idiot $1200 to install it, I'll do it for $500." lol
You can request to watch and or help with the install, some places encourage that to familiarize you with your system. Then again some will tell you that you can't because of insurance reasons.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:55:59
not these guys. They are "Professional Grade" they install competion stereos.. oooo woowww
they showed my friend like this ford excurstion with 12 Alpine 15's and like way too many amps.
I guess if you want to like be cool you have to have to install stereos for nelly
swez on 12/29/2003 22:22:55
OK, all this nonsense is giving me heartburn. If you want to build a real bass machine and have a good budget to back it, we can sure help your friend out on that. You don't need anything more from that sales guy... he is primarily interested in picking his wallet as clean as possible.
I know this as I worked for a retail chain of Car audio stores and the goal there was to figure out how much a guy had to spend, shove a bunch of expensive gear his way and then gouge him more with outragous install fees and extended warranties. I quit after 1 week as I feel I can do more for you guys here. I enjoy seeing your success.... Some shops are very good... but only as good as Management will allow them to to what they do best... Consultive selling, Pro installs and good follow up if service is needed.
As for your dealings with the retail sales jockey... well, he's probably on commissions only and doesn't make a dime off items he cannot get or sell. If he wants to call me an idiot for suggesting a cheap LOC.. he is badly misinformed. That's a quality product, designed by an exceptional audio engineer.IT IS DESIGNED FOR USE IN DELCO BOSE AMPLIFIED SYSTEMS. You don't have to pull the deck to install it. It can be installed in the trunk, tapped off the rear speakers. How simple can that get???
Also, the contencious attitude noted in these posts leads me to shake my head and conceed that this fellow doesn't know first base (bass) from a pile of cow dung . Salesmanship skills are for crap!
1. Always treat the client with utmost respect (he's paying your wages)
2. Teach what you know, get help on the rest from others (team player approach)
3. Guide the customer into an informed set of choices that meet his performance, price and asthetic needs
That's Consultive Selling and I use it often here and elsewhere.
Many retail stores, on the other hand, employ manipulative or combative selling strategies... Ie: If I ain't got it, you can't get, it's no good and you don't need it.... BUY MINE BABY!!! The rest is just pure junk... end RANT !!!
OK, back to the drawing board here. Seems to me that SPL is the main goal here... yes? More bang and boom that what has been discussed so far? OK... we can move up to larger amps, more potent subs and probably go ported for more low end SPL. Sealed enclosures are great for general purpose applications and can take plenty of power, depending on the drivers used. But if you want max SPL, Ported or a well matched BP will deliver max SPL and good SQ too.
Let's set some guidelines for this project OK?
1. How much SPL is enough?
2. How much amping power will the electricals support as is?
3. Doe he want a pure SPL Comps setup, daily driver that can get loud or a Quality SQL system?
4. What is the budget range for this system?
With these answers in hand, then planning the system in detail ,is next... then shop it hard to get the best deals on quality gear.
Do you agree with this roadmap to success?
Swez
PS Wrote part of this earlier and see the decission has already been cast in stone... too bad... but other can learn from his folly... DON'T BE CONNED BY DESIGNER BUFFET OUTFITS... THEY CHARGE TOO MUCH AND DELIVER TOO LITTLE
Munchiesyumm on 12/30/2003 15:30:47
yes..
The guy we talked to was the owner. He was not nice guy. He talked about him having a good reputation and he can't have some kids like my self coming in here and telling him how to run his shop.
I told the guy he had about 2 seconds to make a reasonable price or we leave. Out the door and gone and I will never refer anyone here again.
He once again lowered the price.
The guy that is buying has money and isn't worried about having the best system. The shop is giving him an okay deal considering how they ususally rip people off more.
I wish I would knew how that line out connecter worked earlier though that probably would changed the direction we went but it's already settled. He's happy.
If it was my car I wouldn't have a shop do it no matter what. I don't trust those guys. They are rude unless you have money and all they do is lie to you.
online ordering is the way to go.
once again swez
you helped me a ton here, and my friend even more. Without the information we would be in the dust.
thanks everyone!
ttocs on 12/30/2003 16:22:03
it sounds like you are dealing with a little bit different shop then most are accustomed to. I have worked in 4 or 5 now and been amazed at the difference between them. Back in indiana people would raise a fuss over a couple of bucks. Now in arizona I see people come in, hand the keys, and tell us not to go over 9 grand. They come in, get the keys, sign the credit card bill, and walk out. Shops like that are not concerned with making you happy as 30 min after you leave somebody else will come in and hand over the keys......... If that shop is not as customer oriented as you want, go down the road. The owner at the shop I am at now has gone to amazing extremes to make customers happy, to the point it annoyes us in back but those are the rules......
Relax_The_Mind on 12/31/2003 00:27:31
Audio shop around my way will beat any advertised or unadvertised price...EVEN ONLINE PRICES. Then again you have to add the shipping and such but still you can get good deals without having to wait for shipping. Then again they dont sell all the brands I dont really want. JL, MTX Directed, JVC, Alpine, RF, Lightning Audio...
Yeh I know how terrible a lot of audio shops are. Nowadays its very hard to find someone who actually knows what they are talking about and almost impossible to find someone who would admit they dont know. I get a lot of heresay... In the car audio world people will swear up and down that their friends car is the loudest. blah
I know a handful of people who quit shops and made a pretty decent living doing it out of their garage.
RTM
PS. Im sexy
MB Quart, Model No. RFX9220, CD/MP3 Receiver with 3 Pre-Out... 349.00
Two Alpine type R 300 watt rms 12's $378pair
model SWR-1221D
Rockford Fosgate 1000watt mono amplifer $599 dollars model #1001BD
Rockford Fosgate 450watt 2channel amplifier model #451s $249pair
Alpine type 5.25 component 2 of them SPX-137A $329
Sub Zero Sealed box 2 12's $99.99
Lighting Strike 5 meter unterconnect 2 of them for $25 What is that?
1 male to 2 female strile Y $19.00
Dash Kit $10.00
Antadapt Adapter 11.99
Exspert fused DIsturution 59.00
Labor 1,040.00
parts 2,272.99
total
3,483.46
Getting RIPPED OFF??!!
please help
Replies (23)
uochronos on 12/29/2003 00:09:10
well you can definatly get the same or equal products for much lower prices on the net even better gear in some cases for less. and then have them install it the install shyould be about the same price if you find an ok shop. alot of the ones around me well charge more if you dont buy the product from them but i have found a few that charge about the same even if you dont buy the product from them. or better yet install it yourself and save 1000$. the alpine subs alone you can get off ebay for 250$ with shipping for a pair thats how i got mine. and the alpine components for 349$ you can get a pair of cdt components that should be about equal maybe even better for 149.99 on sale from www.thezeb.com right now. just to name a few. hope this helps right there that saves you aroundb 300$ and thats just finding cheaper parts online for 2 of your items listed. oh also lately alot of people have been posting on here about a JBL 1200watt mono amp for i believe around 300$ that would again save you quite a bundle. so just from those 3 things if you had to pay an extra couple hundred in install work you would save about 300$ which to me would be worth it.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 00:27:29
Yes, definatly.
I am posting this for a friend but I fell like he is getting ripped off like crazy. For 3,500 dollars this isn't even that nice of a system.
I would also say the JBL 1200.1 mono amp for about 300
Screw the interior speaker amplifier. You don't even need that the stock deck can easily power the speakers for trebble. He doesn't even need new interior speakers right?
They want 600 dollars for this rockford fosgate amplifier? What are the pros and cons about rockford amps. Compared to the JBL 1200.1 you can't even compare it can you the JBL is much nicer and much cheaper?
Why not the 24.95 dollar 1,000 watt amplifier wiring kit from walmart?
Are these alpine subs even worth it? I am looking for a serious SPL system. Alpine is more SQ I thought. What are some other options?
what is the 1 male to 2 female strile Y $19.00?
what is the Exspert fused DIsturution 59.00?
The caddy has a stock amplifer in it already would it be possible just to keep that amp? They wanted to replace it with a 450 watt rockford fosgate amp and rewire the entire car.
Is it possible to use the stock deck and plug a JBL 1200.1 in to power 2 subs. It has a cd changer in the trunk could we unplug that and plug in the amp? This is in a 1998 Caddy Eldorado
The basic price range we are looking for is 2,000 dollars. But the problem is the stock deck in it is like insanely hard to take out, if your not a pro with all the tools I was told you can't do it.
Sorry for all the questions but there is a lot of money at stake here and I feel this company is trying to take advantage of me.
www.kustomkaraudio.com is the place.
curtis73 on 12/29/2003 01:47:51
Yeah, Not sure about the other stuff, but I just bought a RFX-9210 for $199 from Crutchfield and it came with the installation manual, wiring harness, and DIN-adapter plate for the dash. Free shipping, too, plus their flawless customer service and tech support.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 02:30:15
golds please help
I would reallly appreciate it!
swez on 12/29/2003 06:42:26
Seems to me, have to define what to buy and what to keep as stoc,k for now.
If he just wants bass added to his current system, there are ways to do that with much less cost... buy on line!
If he basically likes the mids and highs from the stock system installed now, can keep all that, buy a sub amp, wiring kit, Line out convertor (for systems w/ integrated amps) a sub enclosure and misc., hardware for a whole lot less.
If he wants to go that route, we can surely save him about 70% of the quoted costs. Labor is something he can do with help. You can help him or direct him here and we can take it from there.
Here's something to chew on:
SUBS:
Alpine SWR-1241D
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=alpswr1241d&svbname=30 $109.00/ea. + S/H
Good source for quality gear at much lower than retail. Many here have used Etronics and very pleased with what they got.
NOTE: This is a 4+4 DVC sub. A pair of these can be wired full parallel for a 1 ohm load. These are rated at 300 RMS per sub, so a huge amp is not needed.
Alternate: Infinity Kappa 4 ohm SVC:
1. http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1458
300 RMS, 4 ohm SVC, a pair in parallel will net 2 ohms and 600 RMS
2. Infinity KAPPA 120.3DVC 4+4 ohm DVC, 300 RMS/sub., full parallel is 1 ohm load to amp
3. Infinity Reference 1230w ...http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1346 Similar to Alpine, but a 4 ohm SVC sub. Takes 300 watts RMS per sub, same box dimensions as Alpine and sells for:
List Price: 120.00
Our Price: $59.00
Don't let the price fool you... I have suggested these subs to many on this and other forums and the reports back are very positive.
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Box: Recommended Sealed Box Volume: The sealed box sizes recommended by Alpine range from 0.7 cu/ft to 1.0 cu/ft. Within this range, the ideal size recommended by Alpine is 0.85 cu/ft, so this is the enclosure recommended by Crutchfield.
Recommended Vented Box Volume: The vented box sizes recommended by Alpine range from 0.75 cu/ft to 1.75 cu/ft. Within this range, the ideal size recommended by Alpine is 1.25 cu/ft, so this is the enclosure recommended by Crutchfield. One 4" diameter x 13" long port should be used with the 1.25 cu/ft enclosure.
Sealed: H-122LQS Dual 12" Sealed 3/4" MDF Box - 0.88cf per sub $84.99 Sub Zone is a very good prefab enclosure. http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/subzone_universal_sub_boxes.html
Ported: Recommended enclosure is 1.25 cf/sub (internal) May have to make one if he wants to go this route.
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WIRING KITS & HARDWARE: http://www.knukonceptz.com/
High quality, very good prices and a very good vendor online.
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LINE OUT CONVERTORS:
http://www.davidnavone.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=N-85V
Am assuming he has Delco/Bose factory amp system installed now. This LOC will do the job.
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AMPS: The subs noted earlier are 300 RMS/sub and when wired in full parallel, a 600 RMS amp that can do 1 ohm loads is what is needed.
The JBL BP600.1 offers this option. The 1200.1 (1200+ RMS) will shred these subs. Prices on the 600.1 are well below $300.00 off e-bay, Ikesound
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/186
List Price: 400.00
Our Price: $189.00
That took 1.5 hours out of my day to compile this list... but as you can see, add up all the items listed that you like and then compare them to the quote your friend got. The components listed here are equal or superior to what was mentioned in the original post.
The only thing to mention, if your friend elects to go ported on his subs and uses the JBL BP600.1, he may wish to buy a subsonic filtering kit. These are cheap and easy to install as well. (<$30.00/set of 2)
Swez THINK
ttocs on 12/29/2003 10:47:31
a grand for labor???????? I would assume wire and such are in that prices as well but dear god..........
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 12:06:08
Thank you sweZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You solved all of our problems and you saved my freind a lot of money!
I thank you!!!
We will take your advise, and just install sub amps to the exsisting stereo with the parts you listed!
LIFE SAVER!!
My friend has right now two Rockford Fosgate 12 inch HE Punch subwoofers 200watts rms 400watts max. With a RockFord Fosgate 1200watt 2 channel amp running 200watts rms a channel.
It's all brand new but when my friend told the car audio place he got these subs they immediately started bashing on them.
We have a bandpass box we could use for this. It's a standard box, for two 12's witht he ports in all four cornors. Would it be better to go sealed? He has a sealed trunk in his car.
swez on 12/29/2003 12:20:40
The RF gear mentioned should be fine with his stock Bose system. Just enough bass to make things somewhat balanced. Not a perfect matchup (subs & amp) as RF's HE series is 4 ohm SVC and the 2 channel amp cannot take less than 4 ohms when bridged.
His only choice for now, run the amp 2 channel, 1 sub per channel. Losing about 50% of amping power this way, but the subs are 200 watts RMS... so a wash for now. What amp model number is that he has?
Standard Band Pass Box??? Bite your tongue Munchies... hehe sadly, there is no such thing! Unless the BP was designed specifically around the Theil/Small parameters of these subs, you have a crap shoot pending. Could sound tight and punchy (which is good for rock) or full, deep bump... (good for R&B & Jazz) or boomy and muddy... the perfect RAP system. (typical and very bad for most subs)
All I can suggest is trying what you have and see what happens. If the subs sound good in that BP box, use it. If not, can go ported or sealed per RF specs. Sub Zone makes some very good enclosures for RF subs if you wish to look around.
Swez
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 12:45:39
sweezzzz!!
We need to really compeat with some Xtant 500watt rms 12's in a sealed box. When it comes down to it, thats what really needs to be done.
Yes your right the perfect rap machine. My friend is AKA Biggie Smalls but it would be nice to go sealed as you said SMILE I know u said it somewhere in there!!
Will the Alpine/Infinity's beable to compete with Xtant 12 500watt rms subs?
Money is not at all a problem. We are looking at 1,000 - 2,000 dollar range. And we could sell these subs/amp.
Your right, and I don't know what I was thinking when I bought this lame 14.4 volt 1200 """""watt""""" amplifer for a 4 OHM SUbs..
*slaps my self*
Swez I know you probably wanna slap yo momma after listening to this noob stuff but hey! I WILL NEVER IN MY LIFE DO ANYTHING DUMB LIKE BUY A 2 CHANNEL AMP!!! AND NOT ASK YOU GUYS FIRST ABOUT SUBS!
promise!
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 15:36:35
Okay!
We are selling the Subs and Amp it's not a problem to get rid of those. Someone will buy them!
This is what we are going to do. I think we got it figured out. The stock deck we have no idea how to do anything with that. My idea was to take the car into a professional shop have them run the wires and I can put the rest of it together. Subs ect..
Here is the plan we are going to print out what you said Swez, study it like a spelling test and go into the shop and get what you said done!
line out converter, line out converter! I got it! I have no idea how to get behind this deck and I am afraid something will break. This car is too nice to uncle Joe it, so in order to make sure nothing breaks, or goes wrong we will have the line out converter done. I think you need to get behind the deck to do this?
I can run the power cables and ground it thats the easy part!
We are looking at the JBL 1200.1 some subs to match in a sealed box.
I like the suggestions you gave me swez they are GREAT but we have a little more money to spend and looking for some more BOOM BOOM.
We have about 2,000 to spend on subs and amps. So throw some 15's in my face!! ANy ideas? Suggestions?
Please feel free
and SWEZ THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU!!!
I am keeping this page saved for when I need some new subs in the future! Very good advise!
You've helped so much, I saw the light!
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 16:37:02
I am kinda partial to the Pioneer Premire series 12's (TS-W2000SPL) around $120ea.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3067388969&category=18803
Features
- Interlaced Carbon Fiber / Glass Fiber Reinforced IMPP Cone Woofer
- Wide-Roll, 3-Layer Fiber Woven Radial Surround with Honeycomb Cloth
- Double 4-Layer, Long Voice Coil (2 x 4ohm)
- 4-Slit Glass Imide Voice Coil Bobbin
- Conex Damper with Damper Ring
- Projected Pole Yoke with Vented Pole
- Double Stacked Magnets (110 oz.)
- Thick 7/8" (20mm) Top Plate
- Aluminum Die-Cast One-Piece Rigid Chassis
- Silver Binding Posts
- 1-Piece Rubber Gasket
Specifications
- 2000 Watts Max. Music Power
- 750 Watts Nominal Power Handling
- Dual Voice Coil Design (2ohm or 8ohm)
- Frequency Response: 18 - 2kHz
- Sensitivity: 89dB (1W/1m)
- Recommended Enclosure: 1.5 Cubic Feet
Or you could go with a little more serious sub like the JBL W12GTI
http://www.jbl.com/car/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=W12GTI&ser=GTI&cat=SUB
couldn't find it on ebay.. MSRP $599ea
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:03:01
We went down to the store he was being an asshole, because I knew my stuff and wouldn't let him try to put extra things on the bill that was completely not needed.
He insulted you SWEz! He said your line out adaptor was cheap and not even worth using! So I was like Listen, I happen to be very popular in the car stereo industry and I am not liking your attitude. Give us a reasonable offer and stop trying to add things we don't want.
ok so thats what I wanted to say
but I really didn't say anything
But we made out a deal, $2,000 dollars for two Alpine 15's 1500watts rms $350ea in a sealed box. He also wants to put RockFord Fosgate mono block 1,000 watt amplifer $599 dollars model #1001BD. He said that it will run the subs fine. I mentioned that the RockFord amp was garbage using a 14.4 volt to get 1000 watts rms, and why he is putting a lousy 1,000 watt amp for subs that call for 3,000 watts. ( I know 750watts each!! Hammer to the guys forhead) But he claims that many of the RF's run at 12.8 and 13.9 at the most.
Nu uhhh!! I read three golds saying no no no with a slap on the wrist!
Correct me if I am wrong but WHAT is this guy doing? He tells me 1500 watts RMS for nooo they are 750 each. But he doesn't say that he trys to trick my friend. Alpine 15's type R and he wants to use a junky RF 1000 watt mono amplifer for subs that need 750 watts each?
we are missing some JUICE if you ask me!
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:13:27
look at the rating on the subs, they may take a rating as low as 600w, but you are right in the aspect that 1000w @ 14.4 is overrating. Yes, many rf amps run at 12.8 and 13.9 and 10.4 and 8.2 and you get my point, an amp will RUN as long as you put voltage to it, but when you lower the volts, the watts come down as well.
It very well could push those subs enough to make you happy, but you will not be getting the volume you would with an adequately matched amplifier.
$599 for the rf mono 1000w OR $300 for the JBL1200w?
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:22:07
yea but the thing is the guy is a meanie
I asked him if he would order some JBL amps and he gave me a speech about how they came out of the gutter on amps but he still won't order them.
SO I say!! YEA well what if we bring one in? "I can't allow that, I mean you could but we will have to charge you a lot extra to do that and I don't want to be doing warenty on a amp that you order from some store online."
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:20:49
Do keep in mind that they will probably not be able to come close to online prices, especially ebay or closeout deals. They are restricted to their zip code, and have to make money as well. Internet dealers have most of their stuff set up on a computer that tells them when and where to ship what, and they probably have other sources of income as well.
Some good points about having someone sell and install for you is that they should have a lengthier warranty than you can find online, and if something were to go wrong it is their fault, not yours - in most cases.
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:27:00
I understand your frustration. If you want to do it yourself or for your friend, you know we will be here to guide you through it.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:32:33
Yea but it's the entire attitude. He is a salesman and he was acting like one. I guess if thats the only way they can stay alive let it be.
I would be more willing to buy from someone who won't give me a 3,500 dollar quote for something as simple as just needing some subs.
They won't even mention the fact that you can put subs in there without buying their 500 dollar deck.
He tried to tell me that we can't keep the stock speakers because they will blow out with the bass. No sir! Place the bass on ZERO and the TRebble ON +7. Than he says sorry
It's not that I am mad, it's that I am disapointed. He was talking about his reputation like he was at some fancy buffet .
The problem why we couldn't buy online. I don't know how to do this line adapter, and I don't want to have to take this deck out because if it breaks theres not anyways I could afford to fix it.
Anyways my friend is getting it done tomamrow and doesn't even care I saved him 1,500 dollars and selling the old sub and amp he had. They are installing the stereo like tommarow.
Thanks for the help. You all made it a lot easier to get it done.
I am getting a job soon and when I do I look forward to donating to the site!
Thanks cplkittle, thanks swez, thanks uochronos you all helped!
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:44:35
that's what we enjoy doing. stick around, and one day you'll be telling your friend "Don't pay that idiot $1200 to install it, I'll do it for $500." lol
You can request to watch and or help with the install, some places encourage that to familiarize you with your system. Then again some will tell you that you can't because of insurance reasons.
Munchiesyumm on 12/29/2003 17:55:59
not these guys. They are "Professional Grade" they install competion stereos.. oooo woowww
they showed my friend like this ford excurstion with 12 Alpine 15's and like way too many amps.
I guess if you want to like be cool you have to have to install stereos for nelly
swez on 12/29/2003 22:22:55
OK, all this nonsense is giving me heartburn. If you want to build a real bass machine and have a good budget to back it, we can sure help your friend out on that. You don't need anything more from that sales guy... he is primarily interested in picking his wallet as clean as possible.
I know this as I worked for a retail chain of Car audio stores and the goal there was to figure out how much a guy had to spend, shove a bunch of expensive gear his way and then gouge him more with outragous install fees and extended warranties. I quit after 1 week as I feel I can do more for you guys here. I enjoy seeing your success.... Some shops are very good... but only as good as Management will allow them to to what they do best... Consultive selling, Pro installs and good follow up if service is needed.
As for your dealings with the retail sales jockey... well, he's probably on commissions only and doesn't make a dime off items he cannot get or sell. If he wants to call me an idiot for suggesting a cheap LOC.. he is badly misinformed. That's a quality product, designed by an exceptional audio engineer.IT IS DESIGNED FOR USE IN DELCO BOSE AMPLIFIED SYSTEMS. You don't have to pull the deck to install it. It can be installed in the trunk, tapped off the rear speakers. How simple can that get???
Also, the contencious attitude noted in these posts leads me to shake my head and conceed that this fellow doesn't know first base (bass) from a pile of cow dung . Salesmanship skills are for crap!
1. Always treat the client with utmost respect (he's paying your wages)
2. Teach what you know, get help on the rest from others (team player approach)
3. Guide the customer into an informed set of choices that meet his performance, price and asthetic needs
That's Consultive Selling and I use it often here and elsewhere.
Many retail stores, on the other hand, employ manipulative or combative selling strategies... Ie: If I ain't got it, you can't get, it's no good and you don't need it.... BUY MINE BABY!!! The rest is just pure junk... end RANT !!!
OK, back to the drawing board here. Seems to me that SPL is the main goal here... yes? More bang and boom that what has been discussed so far? OK... we can move up to larger amps, more potent subs and probably go ported for more low end SPL. Sealed enclosures are great for general purpose applications and can take plenty of power, depending on the drivers used. But if you want max SPL, Ported or a well matched BP will deliver max SPL and good SQ too.
Let's set some guidelines for this project OK?
1. How much SPL is enough?
2. How much amping power will the electricals support as is?
3. Doe he want a pure SPL Comps setup, daily driver that can get loud or a Quality SQL system?
4. What is the budget range for this system?
With these answers in hand, then planning the system in detail ,is next... then shop it hard to get the best deals on quality gear.
Do you agree with this roadmap to success?
Swez
PS Wrote part of this earlier and see the decission has already been cast in stone... too bad... but other can learn from his folly... DON'T BE CONNED BY DESIGNER BUFFET OUTFITS... THEY CHARGE TOO MUCH AND DELIVER TOO LITTLE
Munchiesyumm on 12/30/2003 15:30:47
yes..
The guy we talked to was the owner. He was not nice guy. He talked about him having a good reputation and he can't have some kids like my self coming in here and telling him how to run his shop.
I told the guy he had about 2 seconds to make a reasonable price or we leave. Out the door and gone and I will never refer anyone here again.
He once again lowered the price.
The guy that is buying has money and isn't worried about having the best system. The shop is giving him an okay deal considering how they ususally rip people off more.
I wish I would knew how that line out connecter worked earlier though that probably would changed the direction we went but it's already settled. He's happy.
If it was my car I wouldn't have a shop do it no matter what. I don't trust those guys. They are rude unless you have money and all they do is lie to you.
online ordering is the way to go.
once again swez
you helped me a ton here, and my friend even more. Without the information we would be in the dust.
thanks everyone!
ttocs on 12/30/2003 16:22:03
it sounds like you are dealing with a little bit different shop then most are accustomed to. I have worked in 4 or 5 now and been amazed at the difference between them. Back in indiana people would raise a fuss over a couple of bucks. Now in arizona I see people come in, hand the keys, and tell us not to go over 9 grand. They come in, get the keys, sign the credit card bill, and walk out. Shops like that are not concerned with making you happy as 30 min after you leave somebody else will come in and hand over the keys......... If that shop is not as customer oriented as you want, go down the road. The owner at the shop I am at now has gone to amazing extremes to make customers happy, to the point it annoyes us in back but those are the rules......
Relax_The_Mind on 12/31/2003 00:27:31
Audio shop around my way will beat any advertised or unadvertised price...EVEN ONLINE PRICES. Then again you have to add the shipping and such but still you can get good deals without having to wait for shipping. Then again they dont sell all the brands I dont really want. JL, MTX Directed, JVC, Alpine, RF, Lightning Audio...
Yeh I know how terrible a lot of audio shops are. Nowadays its very hard to find someone who actually knows what they are talking about and almost impossible to find someone who would admit they dont know. I get a lot of heresay... In the car audio world people will swear up and down that their friends car is the loudest. blah
I know a handful of people who quit shops and made a pretty decent living doing it out of their garage.
RTM
PS. Im sexy
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