-Lee
Replies (40)
compvr15s on 12/25/2003 18:43:34
welcome to the site lee. you will be happy with your experience on this site. great help, honest non biast suggestions. if i were you, i would look dor a better amp to run them, sony over-rates their equipment. depending on how much you can get that sony amp for, may want to go with the jbl 1200.1. 1ohm stable and they are under rated so you will have to be wise on your gains but it will probably produce a better sound than the sony. let us know your price range for the amps your lookin for.
if you have any other questions just ask, nice choice on the subs. good luck
DOHCtah733 on 12/25/2003 19:18:55
Thanks for the quick reply. For the amp, I would really not want it to exceed $350-400. The Sony amp I can buy from my friend for $75. However, do you really feel this will be underpowered? Perhaps you can give me some recommendations on other amps. I did check out the JBL 1200.1 and it seems to be a little too much bang (especially at 1ohm). My main problem seems to be finding 1-ohm stable amps. What about my original question about the stock battery? Do you think it will be enough juice? And the fuse? Thanks again!
uochronos on 12/25/2003 22:40:26
a cheaper amp like sony definatly over rates there amps. a 1000watt sony amp is in general more like a 500watt amp RMS and even that 500watts is at 14.4 volts... my buddy who i helped install his system had a sony amp rated for like 800 or 1000 something like that. and it ended up being like half that power and rms and it didnt power his subs well at all. alot of cheaper amps are tested at 14.4(about what your car is running without any other draws on the alt.) or i have even heard of some amp testing at even higher like 16volts which gives there amps a much much higher out put rating. where as alot of the nicer brand phoenix gold for instance rates there at 12volts which means when your car is actualy on your getting more then there rated RMS power. i think on the test sheet that came with my 500watt phoenix gold amp it said at 14.4volts it was running at just under or just over 600watts rms. also the jbl 1200.1 for those subs would be over powering them but as long as you where easy on the gain i personaly think that would be a good choice. on the JL web site http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
it shows the 12W6v2 as being optimum at 400-600 watts and not into the danger till around 650watts so if you had a 1200.1 and you where running it and not cranking up the gain real hard it doesnt look like a bad match.
DOHCtah733 on 12/25/2003 23:57:15
I find it hard to believe that they would advertise it as 1000w RMS and in reality it is really half of that. Perhaps you confuse me, this is a 1200w amp which at a 1ohm load is rated at 1000 RMS.
Any other suggestions besides the JBL 1200.1?
How about the battery and fuse problems?
cplkittle on 12/26/2003 01:10:08
The battery and fuse will depend on the size amp you get. To get a general idea, divide the watts by the volts (1200w/12v=100amps)
that is max draw, and you have to figure wire resistance, which isn't much if you use the proper size wire (4 gauge or larger).
I would recommend a 100amp fuse on a 4 gauge wire (should be around 12-14feet from battery to trunk in a prelude) and a high output alt in combination with a 800+cca battery. Alot of people here including myself prefer the optima dry cell car batteries, available online or at auto zone ($110-150).
You can do this one step at a time. First run the proper gauge wire with a fuse as close to the battery as possible. Second would be either the battery or alt. If you choose the battery alone, make sure you give your factory alt plenty of time to recharge the battery after long periods, or loud periods of listening.
Caps are a little hyped up, a 1 farad cap is almost like adding a C size battery to your system. It is good for a short period of time, then has to recharge from an already overdrawn electrical system.
Go with the bigger battery and or HO alt, and you should not have any problems whatsoever.
DOHCtah733 on 12/26/2003 03:26:09
Thanks for all that electrical info..it was really helpful!
Anyone else have an idea for an amp to power 2 12w6v2s? Anyone out there actually feel that the Sony amp will be OK (it would save a lot of money for me) or have experience with it?
cplkittle on 12/26/2003 03:31:38
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3066357590&category=18797
JBL 1200w mono on ebay for $240 including shipping.
you can find nice amps cheaper than retail stores charge for the sony. I have nothing against sony, but why put a 4cyl in a ferrari?
swez on 12/26/2003 09:55:44
OK, here's the scoop on that amp mentioned:
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S-L3Kv8RzqrPV/ProdView.asp?a=&s=0&cc=01&g=130&id=features_and_specs&i=158XM1600
Performance:
RMS Power Output (Watts x Channels) 300 x 1 @ 4 ohms
Frequency Response 20-300 Hz
THD at Rated RMS Power 0.2%
Signal to Noise Ratio N/A
Input Voltage 14.4v THINK
Peak Power Output (Watts x Channels) 1000 x 1 THINK
Power at 2 Ohms (Watts x Channels) 600 x 1
Minimum Impedance Unbridged 1
More Specifications:
Supply voltage for power ratings: 14.4V DC THINK
RMS power at 4 ohms: 300 watts x 1 (20-300Hz, at 0.2% THD)
RMS power at 2 ohms: 600 watts x 1 (20-300Hz, at 0.6% THD)
RMS power at 1 ohms: 1000 watts x 1 (20-300Hz, at 1.2% THD)
Max power output at 4 ohms: 600 watts x 1
Max power output at 2 ohms: 1200 watts x 1
Operating voltage: 10.5-16V allowable
Current consumption (at rated output): 40 A THINK (this is a strange arrangement... why used 3x25A fuses if the amp only consumes 40A at nominal output???)
Features:
Amplifier Class D
Low-Pass Crossover Frequency 50-300 Hz
Low-Pass Slope (dB/octave) 12 dB
High-Pass Crossover Frequency N/A
High-Pass Slope (dB/octave) N/A
Bass Boost 0-10 dB
Bass Boost Frequency 40 Hz
Fan Cooled No
Fuse Rating 25 x 3 THINK
Speaker Level Inputs Yes
Preamp Outputs 1 pair
LED Power Indicator Yes
Height (inches) 2-1/8
Width (inches) 14-1/16
Length (inches) 10-3/16
Parts Warranty 1 Year
Labor Warranty 1 Year
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This amp is fused by 25 x 3 fuses = 75A. max draw before fuses will blow. Couple that with a 14.4 volt input voltage, your max input power to the amp is 1,080 watts. Since it is Class D, the efficiency rating of this amp is between 0.8 - 0.9 so....let's split the difference.
THE MATH:
a. 14.4 x 75 = 1,080 watts MAX input power
b. 1,080 x 0.85 = 918 watts output max. (Peak... NOT RMS)
Now, let's assume the real world side of the deal.... this amp will nominally get ~13.5 volts from the ALT/BAT. It's specs say it draws a nominal 40 amperes of current.
Here's what you are really getting from this amp:
13.5 volts x 40 amps = 540 WATTS RMS
These specs are very typical of Sony and why we shun them for serious sub buffs. If you really want a potent sub amp to go with your very much premium subs, consider a real sub amp like the JBL 1200.1.
This JBL amp is no toy like the Sony mentioned... I mean Sorry amp (as in... sorry I bought one) The JBL delivers 1200 watts RMS at 1 or 2 ohms, needs 12.9 volts to meet rating specs. (so output is actually higher than rated) Yes, it will cost more... but you have already bought some great subs. Why not complete the project on style and get all you can for the JL subs?
Finally, The 1200.1 is fuse rated for a max draw of 114A. It work fine at 80A fusing and a #4 wiring kit. You can easily tone down the amp output to subs by carefully adjusting the "gain" a tad below HU voltage ratings. We can help you there too.
In short, don't buy the Sony or you'll be sorry and very dissappointed. Why do you think the guy is selling it so cheap??? So he can get a real amp next. Don't be the fall guy here.
Swez
PS Sony does make very good TV's, some decent HU's and such, but their amps and speakers are nowhere near up to par with the competition in price range and performance. They try to hide that fact with inflated prices and oddly worded specs. Many other cheap brands do similar games. The old saying goes: FIGURES DON'T LIE, BUT LIARS CAN FIGURE.... go figure huh?
compvr15s on 12/26/2003 14:38:23
nicely worded swez. well done, i know id be thinking twice about a sony amp after reading your post. CLAP
DOHCtah733 on 12/26/2003 14:48:20
Wow I'm sure glad I came to this website. I had no idea Sony could be so damn shady. I'm glad I didn't blow my 75 bucks =). I believe everything you have said, but it is weird how they are able to advertise it at 1000w RMS at 1ohm. Just out of curiosity how did they arrive at that figure?
I have checked out the JBL amp and it looks great. Before I settle on this one, any more suggestions on different amps? I want to take a look at different possibilities before making a permanent decision.
compvr15s on 12/26/2003 15:05:18
that will be the best bang for the buck, but kicker makes a kx1200.1. i have two of thier 600.1s. they are very realiable but they are more expensive, if i knew about this site before i bought my stuff i would have went with the jbls. hifonics makes a a bx1000D-1000watts at 1ohm. aslo take your box into consideration, if you go ported will subs will handle less, plus you will want a subsonic filter to keeps your new investments from playin below the port frequency. both the kicker and the hifonics have builtin SS filters but if you go with the jbl you can buy a set and still have the amp and SS filter for less than either model i mentioned. audiobahn has an A1300hcq, its a high current so it will draw more power, its 1200w/rms@1ohm. can check ikesound.com or thezeb.com they will have the amps i just mentioned. if you see somthing you and have questions, just ask.
uochronos on 12/26/2003 15:40:42
Sony came up with that 1000watts because technicaly it could put that much power out but you need to have more voltage then your car is going to put out and you would need to find a way to keep it cool so it didnt over heat... when sony tests these amps in a labratory condition of course they can get 1000watts out of them they can keep them cooled down and pump 14.4+volts into them as appossed to the 13.5 your car puts out like swez said. alot of the amp componies not just sony are "shady" i got taken quite a few times on amps and subs before i learned what little things to look for in the specs... I have watched buddies of mine get takken for sony amps so many times they come over showing off there new 1000+watt sony amp and subs to me and then get really depressed when my 500watt amp and 2 subs that i have sound louder and 10x cleaner then thereb set up. so i tend to be very anti sony for speakers or amps
DOHCtah733 on 12/26/2003 16:59:39
Thansk for all the help guys. I came across a friend who might sell me a RockfordFosgate Power 1000bd amp. Do you guys know if this will be stable @1ohm? What about the Kicker kx1200.1 as prveiously mentioned?
compvr15s on 12/26/2003 17:26:02
RF overrates thier amps now adays too, kicker rates thiers at 13.8 not too bad, a lil hight but not like the sony, it will put out enough for then 2 subs. it will power them nicely. the specs say 1200 at 13.8 and 1350 at 14.4 so if your betwen 12.5volts and 14.4 you will will have plenty of power. is thier a reason why you dont want the jbl or are you just lookin around. i checked RF's website and didnt not see it at 1omh stable, its says 1000watts at 2ohm, thats with 14.4volts so that arnt as over-rated as some,
Relax_The_Mind on 12/27/2003 00:24:52
A1300HCQ Amplifier - 1200x1 @ 1ohm (watts RMS) More Information $329.99! FREE SHIPPING found at This Site RTM (H x W x L) 10-13/16" x 14-13/16" x 2-11/16" RTM
Best bang for the buck. Comparable amps cost twice as much. Only other reason to not buy it is because of the brand name. But you will only be spending money on a logo. It can be picked up for around ~$300 If you look around, maybe $50 less on ebay.
If you buy it from a friend will you still have the manufacturer warranty and maybe an in-store warranty?
On the other note quite a bit of usually higher end competition car audio rate their equipment at 14.4 and higher because most competition cars have highly upgraded electrical systems. Which is in fact good as that means they are stable at higher voltages (such as heat build up) but looking at Sony... can you say marketing?
RTM
DOHCtah733 on 12/27/2003 00:39:29
The JBLs seem like a great amp, but the amp is not very aesthetically appealing and somewhat dull-looking. I have a custom plexiglass setup and wish to show off the amp. Also, the wirings seem to come out of the sides for the JBL amp, whereas my amp space is designed for wires out of the bottom. This is not a big deal tho, I wcould just wire them around or something. Mainly, I'm just shopping around and askign for peoples opinions. Any other recommendations?
cplkittle on 12/27/2003 01:38:19
Alright, here is the lowdown, this took me over an hour to research, but I was interested myself. All figures are based on factory specs and or (W= V x A) All prices are lowest ebay prices. These are 4 of the top brands available on ebay. All figures are without efficiency ratings calculated, and all are class D amps.
Sony as listed above 1080w@14.4v
Kicker KX1200.1...........1420w@14.4v.......1043w@12v....... 1ohm stable....$400+s/h
JBL BP1200.1................1200w@11.8v ...............................1 ohm stable.........$240+s/h
Diamond D5 1200.1....1411w@13.8v.......1227w@12v............1 ohm stable ..$490+s/h
Phoenix Gold 1200.1...1400w@14.4v .......1167w@12v .......2 ohm ............$820+s/h
Relax_The_Mind on 12/27/2003 03:07:07
All of this, however, can also depend on that status of JBL is to your taste. I know quite a bit of people think its not a very good brand. When in fact its one of the number one (if not #1) Audio makers in the world. They are the sister company of Harmon International (makers of Harmon Kardon) and I am pretty sure you have heard and seen the prices on their gear.
I know quite a bit about this company because my company has used some of their studio equipment as well as DJ equipment
As for other recommendations good amps for aesthetic looks without buying the cheap mass produced generic stuff you would find at pawn shops and such I would suggest Audiobahns line of amps
It has a blue led thing going on and all that fun stuff too. Audiobahn makes some nice stuff. Not much else I can suggest as I dont know your taste.
DOHCtah733 on 12/27/2003 03:47:36
cplkittle, I really appreciate you taking your time to obtain some specs for me. The JBLs seem to be the best bang-for-the-buck.
RTM, the audiobahn amp looks sweet, but my custom setup calls for a horizontally mounted amp, not vertical. Nonetheless, that amp does look nice and I appreciate the input.
So I guess I'll be flying with the JBLs. I guess I'll dress it up with a few neons. Does anyone have the dimensions for this amp? I tried looking on the website and internet but it didn't say. Please let me know if u can get these numbers.
Relax_The_Mind on 12/27/2003 04:05:16
swez on 12/27/2003 07:50:38
All RF MONO amps are rated for 2 ohms as are Kicker and Bahn Class D's. If you want a quality Class D amp that will deliver, (1 ohm stable) it will come for other very expensive brands like JL, Phoenix Gold and a few others I cannot remember at the moment.
Bahn makes several 2 channel amps (Class A/B) that will supply the power you are looking for. But the drawback there, is that they draw loads of current to reach that power.
In short, if I knew of a better 1 ohm stable amp that met your pricing & power needs, I'd show it to you. I'll have a look later... but think the 1 ohm parameter and price, knocks many amps out of this equation.
Swez
PS Yes, JBL uses is a plain Jane wrapper, but the design is compact, efficient and very reliable. The RF "Toaster Oven" design isn't much better IMHO, but they get top dollar as it has the RF LOGO on it.
compvr15s on 12/27/2003 12:12:19
kickers kx1200.1 is 1ohm stable, just want to clear that up, i would still recommend the jbl 1200 though.
Model KX1200.1 KX600.1 KX400.1
Power -MONO 1200 @ 1 Ohm 600 @ 2 Ohms 400 @ 2 Ohms
http://kicker.com/ShowPage.cfm?filename=kxdclass.html&menu=KXAMPS
DOHCtah733 on 12/27/2003 13:49:35
OK guys I think I have settled on the JBL 1200.1. I want to thank everyone who helped by giving me your input and opinions.
Now I must move onto the subject of dynamat. I can get 4 sqr ft. sheets from a local store for 15bucks. However, I don't really know what areas on my car need to be dynamatted (trunk floor? trunk lid? etc). Could u guys tell me the best places to dynamat? Also do I need one of those "roller" things? Any other suggestions/comment would also be appreciated.
PS: swez, i love that "toaster over" RF analogy...thats some funny **** man!
cplkittle on 12/27/2003 14:55:27
gotcha, compvr15.. thanks for the info, I had multiple pdf files open trying to compare, must have overlooked that.
I fixed it.
Swez, are you referring to the hellraiser looking amp (one big heatsync) Oh, been meaning to ask, has anyone heard anything about the lightening audio equiptment, supposed to be made by fosgate.
compvr15s on 12/27/2003 16:29:42
i know they are someway affiliated with RF, i think RF makes them but not sure, but one of the shops around here used to carry both, and one of the salesmen said that lightening audio was made by RF.
back to the Question about dynomat, if i was you i would just go ahead and install the stereo first before you dyno mat. its a newer vehicle so maybe it would rattle horrible, but it it does then you can go around to the areas that need attention and just fix that area. there are other manufactures of the same material that sell the stuff for much less. just payin for the name once again. if you do decide to do it, you can do the lid, the trunk floor and back end that holds your tail lights, pull tha carpet away and place it on the metal locations. i think most of the dynomat models need the roller as well as heat. use a hair dyer to form it and then use rubbin alcohol to clean the surface before applying
uochronos on 12/27/2003 21:16:27
15$ for 4 square feets seems like a good even on the zeb and ebay a sheet that size costs around 40$. are there companies that make dynamate type stuff even cheaper then that compvr? if so i'm very interested in knowing myself.
compvr15s on 12/28/2003 12:52:07
im not totally sure on prices that match that, maybe that shop has had it for a while and is tryin to get rid of it or something. i know many lumber companies carry and insulation for roofs of houses, and it has the same effect on sound as dynomat, the name dont come to mind right now though, i do know of b-quiet's brown bread, does the same thing, can get 36sq feet for 194, thats just over 5dollars for a sq foot, wait for ttocs or swez on this, im sure they have both used sound damping and can recommend a good price effective choice, i have no expericence with them. just do some research on good and im sure you can find some good info
uochronos on 12/28/2003 13:08:01
5 dollars a foot is still more then what he paid hehe. thats why i was ammazed that you had seen stuff that well do the same cheaper...
compvr15s on 12/28/2003 13:29:38
i didnt mean cheaper that what he could pay, i meant cheaper than dynomat usually costs. sorry i didnt clear myself there, i dont know of anything for less than what he can pay.
cplkittle on 12/28/2003 15:15:42
I have seen it on ebay pretty cheap, someone will buy 100sq ft, use half of it and try to auction the rest of it off, just be weary of shipping charges..
DOHCtah733 on 12/28/2003 19:28:01
Hey just for clarification and to be absolutely sure, what amp fuse should I use (from the battery to amplifier) for the JBL 1200.1? Also, what gauge wire should I use? Should I use this same gauge for everything (i.e. battery to amp, ground, amp to speakers) Thanks!
cplkittle on 12/28/2003 19:43:11
I would use atleast 2gauge wire from the battery to the amp, and since the max draw is 114amps, I would use a 120-130amp fuse as close to the battery as possible. I always use the same gauge ground as I use power, but that is debatable to some. as for speaker wire, i would go with 6 or 8 gauge.
swez on 12/29/2003 12:03:57
That JBL will pull 114A. at full power, but most will fuse it between 80 -100A. Fuses with lower ratings will take more current than rated for a short time, so 80A is not unreasonable. (100A., if you want to add on later)
As for wiring, I would suggest #2 from the BAT + on back to a D-block that accepts #2 wire. Then use #4 from the D-block, to the amp. The terminals are normally setup for #4 gage power and ground.
Also, if you use the #2 & a D-Block, have room to expand to an interior amp later if you wish... the power feed needs will be there.
Check out: www.knukonceptz.com
Wires, fuses, hardware and other goodies. Very good products at bargain prices...
Swez
DOHCtah733 on 12/29/2003 17:01:08
I heard somewhere that going with a larger guage wire than recommended is not a problem (except for fitment issues). I have in my garage an abundance of 8g wire. If it OK if I use this instead?
cplkittle on 12/29/2003 17:09:50
wire gauge is figured backwards than most think.. # 2 or 2 gauge wire is much larger than 8gauge. If it is high strand wire, you could use it for speakerwire, but for only a few dollars you can buy real speaker wire that would look more professional.
uochronos on 12/29/2003 19:23:55
I wouldnt run 8 gauge on a 1200 watt amp that seems to be asking for trouble its probaly going to heat up and maybe cuase you soem serious issuses. I have a 500watt phoenix gold amp and the amp install kit phoenix gold makes for this amp is 4 guage wire and the lowest they suggest using for it is a 6 gauge wire... all be it this is probaly on the safe side of things as phoenix gold usualy is... i ave never seen 8 gauge ran to anything more then like a 400watt or so. you probaly could get away with it on a 500 or 600watt. but 1200 would be pushing your luck into the realm of unwise.
DOHCtah733 on 12/29/2003 20:30:32
Ahhh thanks for clearing that up guys. Also, I recently emailed JBL about their BP1200.1 being stable down to 1ohm. The guy replied:
"The BP1200.1 amplifier can handle a 1 ohm load, but as a form of protection, it will not provide any more power than it does at the 2 ohm rating. The most power this amp can put out is 1200 watts."
What does "form of protection" mean? Does it have any drawbacks.
PS: sorry guys if this topic is getting a little too long. I just have alot of questions to ask. Thanks for all the help and for putting up with me! =)
uochronos on 12/29/2003 20:57:17
It means the amp has a protection so that it doesnt give the speaker more power from 2 ohm to 1 ohm so that the amp doesnt over heat or burn out. it makes since and doesnt seem like a problem unless you where trying to get more then 1200watts infact thats a nice option toi have it stable to 1 ohm even without getting more power. like i said i dont see a draw back unless you wanted more then 1200watts
swez on 12/29/2003 22:41:50
This amp will put out more than 1200 watts RMS at 1 or 2 ohm loads, depending on the input voltage. The rated input voltage is 12.9 volts. If you feed it more, it can put out more watts. (Ie: 13.5 will net ~1255 watts)
The self limit feature on 1 ohm loads is a good protect circuit that keeps the amp cooler and less prone to thermal runaway. That's a term that indicates that as the amp begins to overheat, (from ultr low ohms loads) the power transistors don't go bonkers and kill the output transistors... (MAGIC SMOKE RELEASED)
Swez
PS Oh, the Kicker 1200.1 is also rated at 1 ohm per .pdf owners manual specs. This may be a new feature as the older models went 2 ohms only. Some nice additional features on that amp... but it costs more too.
DOHCtah733 on 12/30/2003 00:05:14
Ok guys I came across a piece of info that seems to change everything. Most of you know I've been looking for a 1-ohm stable amp because I wanted to run two 4ohm DVC subs in parallel to achieve a 1-ohm load. HOWEVER, I came across this (look at the 2nd page bottom right): http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/pdfs/W6v2_DS.pdf
What is up with this "terminal jumper system"?
Does this mean that this sub can present either a 2ohm, 4ohm , or 8ohm load?
If that is the case, (I used to think the 12w6v2s were strictly 4ohm, which meant 2 of them together would either present a 1ohm or a 4ohm load) I now can get the subs wired to 2ohm and put 2 of them together in series/parallel to can achieve a total impedence of 2ohms, which would be a solution to my "1-ohm amplifier search"
However, I don't really know if this is true (and I don't understand the 'terminal jumper system". Someone please help!
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