Hello everyone. My name is Erik. I just came upon the site recently and I am impressed with everything so far. I have quite a few questions to ask and hope you can help.
First off I am wondeirng what I can do to help my system out now. I have two Sony Xplod 12"s and one Optima amp. I am not sure on the specifics of the amp. After I check it I will reply with those. I know the subs have RMS ratings of 350w. The amp is something like 220 max, so nothing at all. One problem is that the subs still don't have the greatest sound quality when some bass notes hit. The biggest problem however is that no matter what I do, I get massive engine noise through the subs. You cannot turn the music down, you have to turn the radio off, otherwise all you hear is engine noise. If someone can help with that I would be grateful.
The next thing I would like some advice on is amp selection. I am planning to get two Kicker Solo-Baric L7 15" subs. I do not have any idea which amp would be the best to push these. The RMS on them is 1000w. I am also getting a completely new soundstage on the inside of the cab. (The Sonys are in my Firebird, but will be moved to my truck in February. The rest is also for my truck. All subs iin the bed, under a tonneau cover with a hole cut through to the cab and a grommet in place.) Inside the cab I am going to put in 2 Kicker K410s. The 4 x 10s are for behind the seat, to replace the factory ones. I am also getting 2 6.5" midrange, 2 8" midbass, and 2 tweeters. All Kicker products. I am up for advice on which of the Kicker products to choose on these last three, or any other brand you think to be better. The main question here is what kind of amp and crossover to use with all these interior soundstage speakers. The set-up should be something like 4x10s behind the seat, 6.5s in the doors, 8s in kick boxes, and tweeters in corners of windshield. If there are suggestions to this I would love to hear them.
Finally I am wanting to completely customize the interior, as in fiberglass dash, door panels, and speaker enclosures( subs and kickpanels). Any information you can give me on how to do this my self. I would like to build them, not pay someone else to do so. I can hook-up the electrical myself, have done it plenty, I just need to know about fabricating fiberglass.
The model numbers for the speakers I plan to get are as follows:
15" subs = S15L7
8' Midbass = RMB8
6.5" Midrange = R6c
Tweeters = R25, R22, R19, R13 (which is suggested?)
4x10 Coax = K410
As said before any suggestions to this list will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Erik
Replies (46)
uochronos on 12/23/2003 17:07:04
As far as the noise goes do you have the RCA cables and the power cable running together? if so this can cuase alot of distortion in some cases. also check to make sure you have good grounds.
also you may want to check out CDT speakers for the component speakers your looking for. at WWW.CDTAUDIO.com or www.thezeb.com. they are some very good high end speakers for a very reasonable price. i recently got a 3/4 inch silk tweeter and a 6.5inch carbon fiber mid and crossover for 199.99 and they are amazing
erikcooper on 12/23/2003 17:38:23
The tweeter and mid were pairs, not one each, right? I haven't heard of them sold seperately but I was just making sure...
Munchiesyumm on 12/23/2003 17:26:53
Yes, the RCA cables are probably picking up noise from touching other wires possibly the power cable. You might want to check that out, try running it from the other side of a car if that doesn't work get a better set of RCA's.
Check out the link's section on the site for component speakers. Find what you want to buy and check out some sites like
www.ebay.com
www.dealtime.com
to see if you can find it for cheaper!
There is a lot more you have to put in the equation when buying new subs. The 15' kickers will take up a TON of space and require a lot of power.
Two 15's rated at 1,000watts rms you need a serious amp, and you might need some electrical upgrades to run the subs.
The golds will be able to work out some other options to optimize your bass to fit your needs and your electrical limits. Bigger doesn't always mean LOUDER!
How much money do you want to spend?
What is your alt/battery rated at?
Are you looking for SPL or SQL?
erikcooper on 12/23/2003 17:57:35
I just looked at CDT's website. I looked cause I have never heard of them and you all hold them highly. They look nice at first glance but I haven't dug into them yet. I know the 15s are big and take up space and use power but I have a whole bed to put them in and I want somethign with some serious SPL that is going to sound good. Most all Kicker subs that I have heard are loud and sound great. If there are other suggestions I am all ears, but 1000 watts sounds like it ought to do what I am looking for. I would also like to know if any of you have heard of Audiobahn double RMS rating their subs and amps. I looked at them but was told by a dealer that and Audiobahn sub rated at 1000w RMS was really a 500w RMS sub. Same goes for the amps. Money isn't really a key option, I want the quality and will save until I get that money. I am not sure of the ratings on my battery/amp. Once I look I will post those, unless someone knows where to look on here for them. The last answer is basicly a combo of both. I want it loud, but it has to sound good.
erikcooper on 12/23/2003 18:14:19
Sorry for the double post but I have looked at the CDTs a little better. Not being familiar with them I am not sure which ones I should get. I do not know a whole lot about materials used and such so I am not sure if the classics are good or not. They seem to be better than most components watts-RMS-wise but that is all I can base it on. Also, where did you purchase your set for 199.99 at uochronos? None of the prices on their website are that low. Only other question that I have to add at this time is which CDT models would you suggest for me? Anyone feel free to answer.
cplkittle on 12/23/2003 19:15:49
the zeb is where they are cheapest right now as far as I know.
I don't think audiobahn doubles the RMS rating of their subs. Mine have 400w stamped on the back of them. This is the max power rating. All subs will advertise MAX POWER, and if you look at them online you may see two speakers advertised at a total of 800w. Do not assume that any number you see followed by a (w) is going to be rms unless it specifically says rms. If they doubled their rating they would be sued for false advertisement.
I have heard both kicker solo L7's 12's and 15's. In my opinion the 15's are a little louder, but neither are real clean. If you are looking for cleaner sound at the same price and at the same SPL, I would look at the new pioneer premier subs, or JBL Gti series subs.
as for the sony 12's the engine noise can be cut out with either a noise filter or a lowpass filter if moving the speaker/rcas away from the power wire dosen't work. Some amps pick up engine noise no matter what you do, but I am not familiar with optima amps. I had a legacy and an optimus amp that had every filter imaginable on them, and I still got that annoying whine. They should be better now though, that was 10 years ago.
Memphis makes a bad ass 3 way crossover, letting you set the high/low freqs on front, rear, and sub channels. (model CX35A)
or you could go with the coustic XM6 3way 6ch crossover. Both around $100 with shipping on ebay.
erikcooper on 12/24/2003 01:21:28
What is the majority opinion here on Memphis subs? Also, the JBL and Pioneer are priced at 699.00 and 900.00 respectively, that is way higher than the Kickers. I would also like to ask about Audiobahn,
AWIS15 - 2000 RMS (Quad VC)
AWIS15Q - 2000 RMS (Dual VC)
AWT34X - 5000 RMS
AWT15X - 3000 RMS
AW 1508T - 2000 RMs
AW1506T - 1300 RMS
AW1505Q - 1000 RMS
ALUM15Q - 1100 RMS
Those are the numbers listed on their website for each 15" that is supposed to be over 1000w RMS. So each of these subs do get that ammount? I threw the 34 in just because it is so bizarre. If each of these actually get that ammount I am thinking that the AWT15X would be great. What about the SQ on it, anyone know? The price on these at the zeb is 836.99 but at justaudiobahn.com it is 449.00. That is a good price that is doable. If these subs are pulling what they say they can they should be great. Thanks for all the help so far and please, keep suggesting, I love looking at what you guys suggest.
Erik
cplkittle on 12/24/2003 10:57:09
not sure on the memphis subs, have heard nothing but good things on the crossovers and amplifiers though.
found the AWIS15 4000w on ebay for $260 including shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3067351226&category=18804
The immortal series is supposed to be pretty awesome from what I have read 2000w RMS would need a pretty high dollar amp tho
quad 2 ohm voice coils=8ohms or 1/2ohm
I don't know if you can wire 4 voice coils on the same sub in both parallel and series combinations, if you can, you could get a 4 ohm load from it.
erikcooper on 12/24/2003 11:50:13
What amp would anyone suggest for these? Before I decide to get them though I would like to see what you can come up with about Audiobahn doubling their RMs for selling purposes.
uochronos on 12/24/2003 12:30:31
The ones i got where CDT carbon fiber HD series off the zeb for 199.99 although i just looked and they seem to not be listing them now although i just bough them... so i'm assumeing they ran out or something along those lines... i hear from other people here who bought the classic CDT components that they sound great too... and to give you an example my CDTs are rated at 120watts rms.. and i'm running them at around i belive 20-30rms i'm running them stright off my pioneer premier DEH-P640 (someone correct me if i'm wrong on the RMS) and they sound amazing i can crank it up to 90% of the volume and they dont distort . i cant wait to get a nice amp thats putting out around 80-100watts rms for them.
just looked at the zeb and they have the cdt HD62EF for 199.99 on sale. http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
Munchiesyumm on 12/24/2003 21:00:41
Well, being that money isn't really a factor and you don't really know what your alt/battery can handle I'll throw out some reasonable options.
I would suggest check out out these subs:
Rockford - 2 15' RFD2215 $299.99 ea. 600watts rms (thezeb.com)
Ma Audio - 2 15' MA1500XL 259.99 ea. 600watts rms (thezeb.com)
Shiva Brahma - 2 15's $409.00 ea. or 2 12's $369
check out tempests too!
http://www.extremecarstereo.com
JBL makes some very nice amps for good prices
for the MA Audio subs and the Rockford subs the JBL 1200.1 amp would be a very good choice. It is rated at 1200 watts rms and is very power efficent. For around $250 bucks!
The audio bahn subs are pretty good SPL subs the downfall is yes they are exspensive and they need a lot of power to run. Unless you want to get into the mess of upgrading your electrical system I would go with some different subs. You listed a lot of 1000 - 5000watt subs, thats putting a lot strain on the alt/battery. I would suggest a different route than the audiobahns.
good luck
erikcooper on 12/25/2003 00:08:58
I want something that is 1000+w RMS. If I have to upgrade the electrical then I will do so. No problem there. I want some serious bass here. I would love the 34" Audiobahn but that baby is $6000. No way I am spending that for it. I would take the Kicker SoloX 18" if I had the money, it is like $1699. Oh well, I am thinking right now all I see that is looking good is the Kicker L7 15s, one of the Audiobahns, probably the Immortal 15s (AWIS15 or AWIS15Q) or the Linear Compression 15s (AWT15X), and possibly some Memphis 15s. What does anyone think about these choices?
What amp would be best for pushing these? If I ge the Kickers I will need 2000 watts total for the pair of them. If I get the Immortals I will need 4000 watts total, the Linears 6000 watts total. If I get the Memphis 1600 watts total. What amps would best suit these needs?
Also what are the suggestions for an amp to push the CDT HD-62EF? I will need one to push those, the Kicker K410, and the Kicker RMB8. I know I will probably need different amps but what are your suggestions?
Old_man_audio on 12/25/2003 07:18:34
Very interesting stuff here guys... the Bahns rate their subs and amps at proper RMS figures. Their "interior speakers" are rated in pairs. Ie: Bahn 6x9 xxxxx rated @ .250 RMS means 150 RMS per speaker. Hope that claifies what you have heard... you heard part of the story right... just an incomplete answer. Bahn is the odd man out rating speakers this way. But is made very clear on their web site in doing so.
As for subs... Bahns are a pretty good SPL sub. The best SQ sub they have made to my knowledge is the Sound Q Series Alum12 or 15Q's. These are 6 ohm DVC's and rated at 1000/1100 RMS watts each.
ALUM12Q 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 6ohm voice coils - 1000 watts RMS $ 278.99
ALUM15Q 15" Subwoofer w/ dual 6ohm voice coils - 1100 watts RMS $ 353.99
If you really want a loud sub system with both SQ and SPL, look at the Adire Brahma series. Thes come in 10,12 15 and soon 18" versions. These are DVC (2 ohm) and the voice coils are rated at 1600 RMS.
The nice thing about Adire, they support what they sell with well above average Technical service and support. Are designed for high SQ/SPL in small sealed or ported enclosures as well. Not the cheapest sub in town, but I'll bet nobody in your neighborhood has them either... I like that aspect... not using what everyone else has, I mean,
Look here: http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/brahma_series.htm
As for interior speakers, CDT is an excellent choice for getting it loud and clear. Their Component series is top draw audiophile class gear. Can handle plenty of RMS watts in all series models. For the budget minded, the CL-61a is priced remarkably low for the performance you get.
CL-61a 6.5" 2-way Component System (pair)
Here's your chance to save $160! The paint finish on this batch of CL-61 components didn't turn out as bright as desired, so CDT decided to blow them out at a HUGE savings! These are exactly the same as the acclaimed 2003 CL-61, except that the red paint is not quite as bright -that's it! (comes with ¾” silk-dome tweeters) $309.99 MSRP
SALE $149.99/set.
Look here: http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
I have mentioned these to many here and on other forums too. Those who took the option have all come back to rave that these are truly 1st class Comps at a very low price. They all claim the midbass is very impressive and the silk tweeters are very well balanced and natural sounding... not harsh like others they have demoed. My next project will include a set (maybe 2) of this model.
Can talk about amps on a follow up post. For sure, you will be loloking at a pair of hefty amps for the subs... 1000 RMS or more and a beefy amp (or two) for the interior speakers.
FYI: The JBL BP1200.1 is a very good amp for the subs. It is Class D, mono and will do 1 or 2 ohm loads at rated power... 1200 RMS @ 12.9 volts. If you feed the amps more than 12.9 volts (say 13.5 volts) you can expect close to 1300 watts RMS per sub. It will draw 114 amps at full power, but when fused at 80A.'s it rarely will blow the fuse unless you use bass test CD's. At less than $300.00 per amp, cannot beat the watts/$$ ratio.
Munchiesyumm on 12/27/2003 22:39:50
yes I will second that.
If you want serious bass order some Advire and JBL amp/amps
any more questions?
erikcooper on 12/30/2003 00:31:25
Wow guys, this last post from old_man_audio was extremely helpful. I will definitely look into the JBLs. What is a good amp for my Xplods that I have now. I plan to run them as well as the 15s that I buy. They are the 12" Xplods, not the P5s, and rated at 350w RMS. I have two of them. I guess now I just await your advice on the amps, namely for the 12s and the interior.
swez on 12/30/2003 10:58:42
Swez here... aka Old_Man_Audio
OK, we're making progress ... let's try to break all this up into sub topics and maybe spread the details over multiple posts. Will be easier to remain focused and keep the details in their respective locations. File and detail management is important when doing such a complex install.
1 Subs and amps
2.Interior speakers & amp
3.Wiring, power distribution and hardware needs
4.HU & signal processors
5.Pulling it all together
For now, let's focus on Subs/ Amps and power management OK?
Yes, the Adire Brahma 15" is a terrific sub. It will handle 1600 watts worth of electrical power, but depending on the enclosure design, max excursion will be reached well before the electrical max is reached due to the large excursion capability of this sub design. This sub will move a lot of air with 1000 watts RMS of power. A modest vented enclosure of say 2.5 cf +/- 10% (internal air space) should be more than enough.
See this link for Brahma tecnical details: http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/brahma_series.htm
May I suggest a two stage (Bi-amped) sub system for your application? Since you wish to keep the Sony X-plode 12's, use these as midbass drivers with an operating range of say 80 - 120 Hz. Here, a modest amp and a small sealed enclosure (_0.75 cf/chamber) will do the trick. The amp you have now may work or can upgrade later. Won't need a lot of power in this range to blend the bass. A good active filtering network will definitely help though. More on that later... just ask.
Now, for the deep low bass, a single Brahma (15 or 18") in a ported enclosure will definitly bring on the "THUNDER". With a little help from Adire Technical, we can figure out a ported enclosure design that will net 30-80 Hz., power for the low bass engine. You will need a subsonic filter on the amp you choose, but this is both easy and inexpensive to accomplish when paired with a single JBL BP1200.1
POWER MANAGEMENT:
Since we are looking at 1 hefty sub amp, 1 modest midbass amp and probably a decent 4 channel for mids/highs in the interior, we have to figure out how much power will be demanded from the electrical system to run all this gear well. The breakdown may look something like this:
1. JBL 1200.1: Max current draw is 114A. (typ. working load is ~90A.)
2. Midbass amp: Don't need much here... 100 watts per sub (Sony's) is plenty so a 200 watt amp will draw about 25A.
3. A 4 channel amp: 100 x 4 will draw about 50A.
YOU WILL NEED AN ACTIVE LINE DRIVER/FILTER NETWORK TO FEED EACH AMP THE PROPER RANGE OF SIGNALS.
Using this approach will insure adequate signal allocation and voltage to each band of frequencies fed to each amp and speakers. This will also give you added RCA outputs to manage all the RCA line outs. We are looking at a 3 band system here: More on this later too.
A. Low Bass 30-80 Hz.
B. Midbass 80-120 Hz.
C. Mids/highs 120 - 20,000 Hz. (passive filtering on mid & high drivers)
POWER TARGETS:
MAXIMUM: 114 + 30 + 60 = 204 amperes
NOMINAL: 90 + 25 + 50 = 165 amperes
Basically, we are talking about a 200 - 300A power source for all this gear. That's very expensive. However, one can often add an AUX ALT/BAT supply to power the larger amplifiers and run the interior amp off the car/truck primary system.
That is often cheaper and easier to do than getting 1 huge ALT to do the whole job. Adding a 160A. ALT., mounted to the block can be done by yourself or by a custom electrical shop. Have no idea what that cost would be, but some research on your part will give you the answers you need.
As you can see, this is a very complex system so good planning and equipment selection is "mission critical". You don't have to be a "Rocket Scientist" to do all this either. Just take one bite at a time... to eat an elephant. GRIN
Hope this is helpful in collecting your thoughts before you start buying gear. Lay all this on in a logical master plan, and you will have a super SQL system when done.
Swez a.k.a. Old_Man_Audio
NOTE: A good 4 channel amp for mid/highs really depends on what speakers you want and how loud you want them. With the system we are talking about here, figure 75-100 watts RMS x 4 channels will do nicely.
Are we having fun yet? hehe
erikcooper on 12/30/2003 11:14:32
I have fun just discussing this actually. I like what I am seeing so far but I see two problems in the latest post.
1. On the interior amp it will need to push 2 6.5"s, 2 tweets, and 2 4 x 10s. I have the Kicker K410s and I am going to order the CDT HD-62CV or HD-62EF. The EF are cheaper cause of a special but I can't find specs on CDTs pae for them. The CVs are 100w RMS. The K410s are 30w RMs.
2. Will running only 100w to the Sonys not clip them?? They are 350w RMS subs. Right now I think they are being misused anyway with the little amp I have pushing them. Shouldn't they be much closer to 350w or will it not hurt them?
erikcooper on 12/30/2003 19:59:11
I have decided no amp is needed for the 4 x 10s, I will run them from the HU. So what is a good 100w x 4 amp? And what is a good 350w x 2 amp for the midbasses? And finally what is the highest RMS that the JBL 1200 should be used to push?
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 02:50:56
No one seen this or everyone thinking?
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 10:58:49
What kind of amp would it take to push the Audiobahn AWIS 15 Immortal 2000W RMS 15s? They are Quad voice Coil at 2 Ohm.
Same question for the AW1506T which is 1300w RMS and has Dual 4 OHm Voice Coils. 2 Ohm or 8 Ohm operation.
Also, the AW1508T. 2000w RMS Dual 2 Ohm coils so 1 or 4 Ohm operation.
Any ideas?
uochronos on 01/2/2004 12:52:58
with 2000watt rms you would need qiute an amp to run just one of those and you would definatly need to do some electrical system upgrades... i would suggest an amp like a phoenix gold octane series 3000watt mono amp for the 15" immortal. the 3000watts is max at 2ohm... i want to say it has an rms of like 1500-1800watts but as i cant load there page right now but that would run either of those subs nicley.
as for the jbl 1200.1 i would run anythuing upt to 1500watts i would think.
and i wouldnt suggest runing the sony subs that far under RMS in a sealed enclosure but they might sound ok in a ported box since it takes less to push them then. but still really under powered.
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 14:39:14
I am running the Sonys right now but I am wanting to know a good amp to use to push them. Also, my friend is looking to get some like mine but I am wanting to know if anyone knows any subs that are better than the Sonys for around that price. I can get the Sonys for him for $65 a piece. I will look up the Phoenix amp because I may be getting a great deal on the AW1508s.
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 16:30:29
The Phoenix amp that you mean is the OCTANE-R 30.0:1. Does anyone know how many watts this thing will do RMS? It is 3000w but that is max.
I looked at the manual it has online and the 15.0:1 is 1500w max and 1000w RMS, so do you think that the 30.0:1 would be 2000w RMS?
Nevermind I looked at sounddomain and the specs on it say 1000w x 1 at 4 Ohms or 2000w RMS x 1 at 2 Ohm.
It is $950 though, anyone know anything any cheaper?? Could you run two JBL 1200.1 s on it?
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 17:09:46
What does anyone think about this amp running either of the 2000 watt subs?
Audiobahn A18001DT
Let me know.
Audiobahn also has these rackmount amps that could be useful to me. What do you guys think of the A500X2Q which does 350 x 2 at 4 Ohms Stereo, and the A4X100HQ or the A100X4Q which both do 100w x 4 in 2 Ohm Stereo.
If you do not like these or know something cheapers that gets the same thing let me know.
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 18:08:54
I just got two of the AW1508s for $340 plus $60 shipping. That is a great deal. Now I got to get an amp for em. My friend wants one of them so I need to find an amp that can push them and get 2 of them.
uochronos on 01/2/2004 19:00:16
that amp is 900$ retail go on ebay and you can get it brand new for alot cheaper... the octance r 3000watt should be 2000watts rms i cheakced with a friend that has one and thats what he said the manual said. although that is sort of hear say but since the phoenix gold site doenst really say thats the best i have. and if that still too much for you then try to give me a price range.... you said you wanted a good amp so i gave you the high end one that i trust very well... also if your paying 65$ a piece for sonys you can get 2 alpine type r 10's that well blow those all the way to hell for 200$ on ebay. also you can get type S alpine for about the same as the sonys and those well still blow sony away.. btw just checked on ebay 2 12" type S alpines for for 139. and 2 10" alpine type S go for 129... thats for a pair. i can help you find a amp in your price range but i well need to know what you want to spend... i personaly go for high quality. Honestly i think phoenix gold is the way to go for amps but i'm also willing to save up for a long time to get that quality... i have seen phoenix gold amps take quite a beating and still last for years and years... my buddy has a 1998 model in his truck and it looks like its been threw a war but it sounds and works fine.., they also only use really high end components. also for 3000watts(2000rms) 900$ company suggested retail isnt bad... infact its hard to find that big of an amp for as cheap as you can get the octane r on ebay i saw 4 brand new ones on there a couple weeks back for 550$ each i belive...
also you list the auidiobahn a18001dt amp that amp is the same price as the phoenix gold amp i mentions but 200watts less....
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 20:01:13
Good info. Will reply longer later, but I can get the audiobahn a18001 for $499 at justaudiobahn.com.
uochronos on 01/2/2004 20:30:36
ya i assumed you could get it cheaper then 900$ i was just saying both companies list the retails of the amps the same... all be it i dont have any bahn experience so i cant say they are a bad amp. i'm just saying you would get 200watts more for the same money out of a phoenix gold octane amp... if you look around ont he net or find one on ebay.
erikcooper on 01/3/2004 01:23:52
I have found the bahn amp for $350 on Ebay. I am going to start looking for the PG one now and see what I can find.
On another note, I plan to build my own fiberglass dash/console in one, door panels, and speaker enclosures. Do you think that this righ there would help me out, or would it be a waste of money?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3069110421&category=50569
Let me know. Also if anyone can vouch for the other bahn amps I listed for the 12s I have and the components, please do.
Edit: No luck finding the PG Octane 3000w on Ebay...
uochronos on 01/3/2004 11:53:22
The octanes sale pretty fast on ebay i think its the same guy that keeps listing alot of them at buy it now... you could look and see if one guy is saleing alot of the octane stuff and ask if he has any that arnt listed... they are really nice amps they are PG's new "affordable series" but the quality is just as good as my tantrum series amp... and as far as eye appealing they are just beutiful... i wouldnt be trying to push this amp but for 200watts nmroe and as nice features as it has i think it would be worth doing some looking about. i well look around myself and see what i can find.
swez on 01/3/2004 18:16:28
Gee, missed a lot since my last stop here...
About the Sony's... I mention them as a good midbass driver with a small - medium sized amp because as a sub moves up in frequency, the output dB goes up rapidly due to efficiency factors. At 60 - 100 Hz, these subs (Sony) will only need 75 -100 watts RMS each to put out adequate SPL. Using this arrangement, you may wish to delete the 4 x10's entirely as that's what these do any way... poor man's midbass drivers. In this application, no need for a huge amp or enclosure for the Sony's as they will only do midbass.
Now, if you were using the Sony's for low end bass, (35 - 60 Hz.) more power would be needed to get the SPL up to par. But since you are going for a larger subwoofer amp and driver(s), this part of the system will take car of the deep low end bass. (below 60 Hz.)
Finally, need to advise that there is only a +3dB SPL difference in a single woofer and amp rated at 1000 watts VS 2000 watts. (RMS of coarse) One can hear that difference, but it's not going to spill your drink out of the cup holder or blast out the windows either. Considering all the added cost for amp(s), subs and electrical upgrades.. is that +3dB work all that extra cost? To an SPL Comp guy maybe. To the average street pounder... maybe not. Only you can say what is best for your situation.
Again, this is just FYI... do what you wish, but do it with fore knowledge of what you will get for the effort and $$$ spent.
Swez COFFEE
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 02:16:34
Well, I may as well use the 4 x 10s as I already have them. As for the difference in power for the Sonys, will it not hurt them to underpower them that much? And as for the 1000w to 2000w difference I already have an AW1508Q. I have found something that says this is a 2000w RMS sub, but then someone said it was only 1100w. Can someone check up on that and let me know? I only want an amp that will power this sub and not hurt it. If it accomplishes that, I should be happy. I still am clueless on what amps to use for the components and sonys though...
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 02:40:27
After reading some more posts to keep the trebble/bass ratio semi close your going to need some interiors speakers that can handle some serious power like 100 - 150 watt speakers so u need a very high powered 4 channel amp. You have some AMAZING subs you need some mids/highs to match it!
www.crutchfield.com and http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/ has tons of interior speakers. Polk Audio, Phoenix Gold, Alpine
What interior speakers do you currently have? Brand, RMS rating?
I thought you said you had some 4x10's and some 61/2's
Here are some 4 channel amp options
Orion 800.4 $359
4 x 100 watts @ 4 Ohm
4 x 200 watts @ 2 Ohm
2 x 400 watts @ 4 Ohm
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13478
JBL 300.4
75w x 4 into 4 ohms
150W x 4 into 2 ohms
300W x 2 into 4 ohms bridged
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1651
Audio Bahn A4125HC $399
Amplifier - 125x4 @ 4ohm
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/audiobahn_amplifiers.html
RockFord Fosgate Punch 801X
100 W X 4 @ 4 Ohms RMS
200 W X 4 @ 2 Ohms RMS
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/rockfordfosgateamps.html
I saw swez putting some big numbers down for 4 channel amps so I decided to help! I was bored so why nott!
hope this helps
swez on 01/4/2004 04:33:55
The AW1508Q is rated at 2000 watts RMS, 2+2 DVC. (1 or 4 ohms per sub is possible with both voice coils used.
Here are the specs: http://www.audiobahninc.com/products/woofers/flameCompression.html
As for the amp... A pair of Bahn A1500HCQ's will deliver. But you will need major electrical upgrades here to power a pair of these.
Bahn A1500HCQ Amplifier - 2000x1 @ 1ohm (watts) $369.99 /sub will definitely get you the power to drive the subs mentioned. This is a very good price from Zeb audio for that much power.
As for the Sony subs... 100 watts RMS per sub is fine, (midbass) will not damage the subs if you don't overdrive the amp. (clipping) You know this is a fact, as it is the same deal as when running your system at low power. They sound fine at 30 - 50% power right ? Sure they do!
About running the interior speakers... going to be very bass heavy if you use a pair of amps and subs that put out 4000 watts RMS. Your subs will be in the 150 dB range. To keep up with that, your interior speakers will have to be very potent too. Nothing stock will take anywhere near 100 watts RMS per channel.
An 8:1 ratio is a good mix between mid/highs and subs. So, 4000 watts to subs, will need speakers and amps that will handle much more than 100 x 4. More like 500 RMS/ channel for the FRONT STAGE mid/highs. I know of no interior speakers that can take that much power and survive short of Professional audio gear. But not in a 6.5" driver... 8" midrange and a horn tweeter maybe, but not 6.5" Comps.
If you still want to run the 4x10's off the HU amp, looking at maybe 20 watts/speaker here and roughly 98-103dB max from that setup. Your subs will totally run them over. The question here is: Do you want a high powered sub system and full range to keep up or just loads of bass? So far, it appears that high bass SPL is the target and the rest is just whatever you can muster with off the shelf mid/high Comps and amp? Please clarify what you want OK?
Swez
PS I am getting confused by where this project is headed. Help me to help you by clarifying your end goal here.
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 17:10:33
Ok I have the AW1508s, but they are Qs, not Ts. Are the specs the same on them? I ordered two yes, but one is for my friend and the other for me. So I will only be running one of the amps and one of the subs, so 2000w not 4000w. I am going to order CDT interior speakers. Either the ones for $200 or for $150 from here : http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
Which ones do you suggest ordering?
Once I get those CDTs I will have all the speakers, at least for now. All I need to know is what amp to get to push them. I like the amp you suggested for the subs Swez. Nice price for it. So should I get a 6 x 100w for the 6.5s, tweeters, and 12s? or should I get 2 x 100w and 4 x 100w ? And then I need to filter out only certain frequencies to each driver. What is the best way to do that?
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 17:27:32
So we have one AW1508 2000watts RMS @ 1 ohm and the Bahn A1500HCQ Amplifier - 2000x1 thats perfect match up!
This will be a lot more easier to configure bass/mids/hi with only one of the subs.
Buy the CDT's model CL-61a I believe you were refering too, they are on sale and they are the same thing exscept paint color was not as bright? oh well..
I listed many very good 4 channel amplifers above if you would look
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 17:36:20
I saw that, so I should go with 4 x 100 and 2 x 100 instead of 6 x 100??
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 17:38:35
I am having a hard time understanding what exsactly do you need to plug into the amp? There have been soo many posts!
I thought you said 4x10's
and the CDT 6.5's
Are you still wanting to plug the sony's in for mids?
If so I can find a 6 channel amplifer so you can have one amp to do it all. It's going to be quiet exspensive 100 watts x6 is a very powerful amplifer.
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 18:03:03
six channel possibilities
Phoenix Gold XS6600 $449.00
4 ohm Mono 180 x 2 300 x 1
2 ohm Per Ch. 90 x 4 150 x 2
4 ohm Per Ch. 50 x 4
6 Channel Power Amplifier
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12992
Earthquake 6600XM-G $499
115 W x 6 channels Stereo Output (2 ohm)
85 W x 6 channels Stereo Output (4 ohm)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12594
Audiobahn A6601T $449.00
75 x 6 at 4 Ohms Stereo
105 x 6 at 2 Ohms Stereo
210 x 3 at 4 Ohms Mono
http://www.carstereomall.com/store/store.cgi?command=listitems&pos=0&type=search2&search=ab-a6601t
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 18:22:05
I am plugging in the CDTs, 6.5s and tweeters, and the sonys at 100w. So yes 100w x 6.
Also I found some CDT HD-62 for $200. Should I get those instead?
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 18:34:13
Well the HD-62 are very good speakers! Especially for $200 dollars the retail on those are $419 and www.thezeb.com is asking $389 I would definatly take up that offer for 50% off!
a good find!
How do you like the Six channel amps I perposed? The audio bahn seems like the best match up but lets see if anyone else can find some more amps or comment on this amp!
uochronos on 01/4/2004 21:03:24
I personaly bought a pair of the HD-62cf which is the same as the regular hd-62 ecept carbon fiber cones pretty much a few other little details, and these speakers sound great i'm running them off my HU. I cant wait to get an amp for them because running off the 20-30rm they have now they kick ass.
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 22:16:40
Only problem with the HD-62 is a ton more watts, means even bigger amp...
uochronos on 01/4/2004 22:20:15
notreally they are capable of handling alot moreyes but i have them hooked strieght to the HU and they sound great and in the end i only plan on giving them 75-100watts rms.... just because they said 130watts rms doesnt mean you have to give them all of it:) although it would be nice i'm sure... they dont seem to clip at all runinf strieght off the HU either... infact i get no distortion out of them except at really high levels. like 90% of volume or more.
erikcooper on 01/5/2004 01:04:47
Cool, may have to get them, if anyone else wants these at this deal let me know. I will give you a link, I think the guys has 10, all new and in box.
erikcooper on 01/5/2004 10:18:12
Ok guys. I am going to start a new topic, this one is getting long. I will take all the highlights from the recent posts.
First off I am wondeirng what I can do to help my system out now. I have two Sony Xplod 12"s and one Optima amp. I am not sure on the specifics of the amp. After I check it I will reply with those. I know the subs have RMS ratings of 350w. The amp is something like 220 max, so nothing at all. One problem is that the subs still don't have the greatest sound quality when some bass notes hit. The biggest problem however is that no matter what I do, I get massive engine noise through the subs. You cannot turn the music down, you have to turn the radio off, otherwise all you hear is engine noise. If someone can help with that I would be grateful.
The next thing I would like some advice on is amp selection. I am planning to get two Kicker Solo-Baric L7 15" subs. I do not have any idea which amp would be the best to push these. The RMS on them is 1000w. I am also getting a completely new soundstage on the inside of the cab. (The Sonys are in my Firebird, but will be moved to my truck in February. The rest is also for my truck. All subs iin the bed, under a tonneau cover with a hole cut through to the cab and a grommet in place.) Inside the cab I am going to put in 2 Kicker K410s. The 4 x 10s are for behind the seat, to replace the factory ones. I am also getting 2 6.5" midrange, 2 8" midbass, and 2 tweeters. All Kicker products. I am up for advice on which of the Kicker products to choose on these last three, or any other brand you think to be better. The main question here is what kind of amp and crossover to use with all these interior soundstage speakers. The set-up should be something like 4x10s behind the seat, 6.5s in the doors, 8s in kick boxes, and tweeters in corners of windshield. If there are suggestions to this I would love to hear them.
Finally I am wanting to completely customize the interior, as in fiberglass dash, door panels, and speaker enclosures( subs and kickpanels). Any information you can give me on how to do this my self. I would like to build them, not pay someone else to do so. I can hook-up the electrical myself, have done it plenty, I just need to know about fabricating fiberglass.
The model numbers for the speakers I plan to get are as follows:
15" subs = S15L7
8' Midbass = RMB8
6.5" Midrange = R6c
Tweeters = R25, R22, R19, R13 (which is suggested?)
4x10 Coax = K410
As said before any suggestions to this list will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Erik
Replies (46)
uochronos on 12/23/2003 17:07:04
As far as the noise goes do you have the RCA cables and the power cable running together? if so this can cuase alot of distortion in some cases. also check to make sure you have good grounds.
also you may want to check out CDT speakers for the component speakers your looking for. at WWW.CDTAUDIO.com or www.thezeb.com. they are some very good high end speakers for a very reasonable price. i recently got a 3/4 inch silk tweeter and a 6.5inch carbon fiber mid and crossover for 199.99 and they are amazing
erikcooper on 12/23/2003 17:38:23
The tweeter and mid were pairs, not one each, right? I haven't heard of them sold seperately but I was just making sure...
Munchiesyumm on 12/23/2003 17:26:53
Yes, the RCA cables are probably picking up noise from touching other wires possibly the power cable. You might want to check that out, try running it from the other side of a car if that doesn't work get a better set of RCA's.
Check out the link's section on the site for component speakers. Find what you want to buy and check out some sites like
www.ebay.com
www.dealtime.com
to see if you can find it for cheaper!
There is a lot more you have to put in the equation when buying new subs. The 15' kickers will take up a TON of space and require a lot of power.
Two 15's rated at 1,000watts rms you need a serious amp, and you might need some electrical upgrades to run the subs.
The golds will be able to work out some other options to optimize your bass to fit your needs and your electrical limits. Bigger doesn't always mean LOUDER!
How much money do you want to spend?
What is your alt/battery rated at?
Are you looking for SPL or SQL?
erikcooper on 12/23/2003 17:57:35
I just looked at CDT's website. I looked cause I have never heard of them and you all hold them highly. They look nice at first glance but I haven't dug into them yet. I know the 15s are big and take up space and use power but I have a whole bed to put them in and I want somethign with some serious SPL that is going to sound good. Most all Kicker subs that I have heard are loud and sound great. If there are other suggestions I am all ears, but 1000 watts sounds like it ought to do what I am looking for. I would also like to know if any of you have heard of Audiobahn double RMS rating their subs and amps. I looked at them but was told by a dealer that and Audiobahn sub rated at 1000w RMS was really a 500w RMS sub. Same goes for the amps. Money isn't really a key option, I want the quality and will save until I get that money. I am not sure of the ratings on my battery/amp. Once I look I will post those, unless someone knows where to look on here for them. The last answer is basicly a combo of both. I want it loud, but it has to sound good.
erikcooper on 12/23/2003 18:14:19
Sorry for the double post but I have looked at the CDTs a little better. Not being familiar with them I am not sure which ones I should get. I do not know a whole lot about materials used and such so I am not sure if the classics are good or not. They seem to be better than most components watts-RMS-wise but that is all I can base it on. Also, where did you purchase your set for 199.99 at uochronos? None of the prices on their website are that low. Only other question that I have to add at this time is which CDT models would you suggest for me? Anyone feel free to answer.
cplkittle on 12/23/2003 19:15:49
the zeb is where they are cheapest right now as far as I know.
I don't think audiobahn doubles the RMS rating of their subs. Mine have 400w stamped on the back of them. This is the max power rating. All subs will advertise MAX POWER, and if you look at them online you may see two speakers advertised at a total of 800w. Do not assume that any number you see followed by a (w) is going to be rms unless it specifically says rms. If they doubled their rating they would be sued for false advertisement.
I have heard both kicker solo L7's 12's and 15's. In my opinion the 15's are a little louder, but neither are real clean. If you are looking for cleaner sound at the same price and at the same SPL, I would look at the new pioneer premier subs, or JBL Gti series subs.
as for the sony 12's the engine noise can be cut out with either a noise filter or a lowpass filter if moving the speaker/rcas away from the power wire dosen't work. Some amps pick up engine noise no matter what you do, but I am not familiar with optima amps. I had a legacy and an optimus amp that had every filter imaginable on them, and I still got that annoying whine. They should be better now though, that was 10 years ago.
Memphis makes a bad ass 3 way crossover, letting you set the high/low freqs on front, rear, and sub channels. (model CX35A)
or you could go with the coustic XM6 3way 6ch crossover. Both around $100 with shipping on ebay.
erikcooper on 12/24/2003 01:21:28
What is the majority opinion here on Memphis subs? Also, the JBL and Pioneer are priced at 699.00 and 900.00 respectively, that is way higher than the Kickers. I would also like to ask about Audiobahn,
AWIS15 - 2000 RMS (Quad VC)
AWIS15Q - 2000 RMS (Dual VC)
AWT34X - 5000 RMS
AWT15X - 3000 RMS
AW 1508T - 2000 RMs
AW1506T - 1300 RMS
AW1505Q - 1000 RMS
ALUM15Q - 1100 RMS
Those are the numbers listed on their website for each 15" that is supposed to be over 1000w RMS. So each of these subs do get that ammount? I threw the 34 in just because it is so bizarre. If each of these actually get that ammount I am thinking that the AWT15X would be great. What about the SQ on it, anyone know? The price on these at the zeb is 836.99 but at justaudiobahn.com it is 449.00. That is a good price that is doable. If these subs are pulling what they say they can they should be great. Thanks for all the help so far and please, keep suggesting, I love looking at what you guys suggest.
Erik
cplkittle on 12/24/2003 10:57:09
not sure on the memphis subs, have heard nothing but good things on the crossovers and amplifiers though.
found the AWIS15 4000w on ebay for $260 including shipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3067351226&category=18804
The immortal series is supposed to be pretty awesome from what I have read 2000w RMS would need a pretty high dollar amp tho
quad 2 ohm voice coils=8ohms or 1/2ohm
I don't know if you can wire 4 voice coils on the same sub in both parallel and series combinations, if you can, you could get a 4 ohm load from it.
erikcooper on 12/24/2003 11:50:13
What amp would anyone suggest for these? Before I decide to get them though I would like to see what you can come up with about Audiobahn doubling their RMs for selling purposes.
uochronos on 12/24/2003 12:30:31
The ones i got where CDT carbon fiber HD series off the zeb for 199.99 although i just looked and they seem to not be listing them now although i just bough them... so i'm assumeing they ran out or something along those lines... i hear from other people here who bought the classic CDT components that they sound great too... and to give you an example my CDTs are rated at 120watts rms.. and i'm running them at around i belive 20-30rms i'm running them stright off my pioneer premier DEH-P640 (someone correct me if i'm wrong on the RMS) and they sound amazing i can crank it up to 90% of the volume and they dont distort . i cant wait to get a nice amp thats putting out around 80-100watts rms for them.
just looked at the zeb and they have the cdt HD62EF for 199.99 on sale. http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
Munchiesyumm on 12/24/2003 21:00:41
Well, being that money isn't really a factor and you don't really know what your alt/battery can handle I'll throw out some reasonable options.
I would suggest check out out these subs:
Rockford - 2 15' RFD2215 $299.99 ea. 600watts rms (thezeb.com)
Ma Audio - 2 15' MA1500XL 259.99 ea. 600watts rms (thezeb.com)
Shiva Brahma - 2 15's $409.00 ea. or 2 12's $369
check out tempests too!
http://www.extremecarstereo.com
JBL makes some very nice amps for good prices
for the MA Audio subs and the Rockford subs the JBL 1200.1 amp would be a very good choice. It is rated at 1200 watts rms and is very power efficent. For around $250 bucks!
The audio bahn subs are pretty good SPL subs the downfall is yes they are exspensive and they need a lot of power to run. Unless you want to get into the mess of upgrading your electrical system I would go with some different subs. You listed a lot of 1000 - 5000watt subs, thats putting a lot strain on the alt/battery. I would suggest a different route than the audiobahns.
good luck
erikcooper on 12/25/2003 00:08:58
I want something that is 1000+w RMS. If I have to upgrade the electrical then I will do so. No problem there. I want some serious bass here. I would love the 34" Audiobahn but that baby is $6000. No way I am spending that for it. I would take the Kicker SoloX 18" if I had the money, it is like $1699. Oh well, I am thinking right now all I see that is looking good is the Kicker L7 15s, one of the Audiobahns, probably the Immortal 15s (AWIS15 or AWIS15Q) or the Linear Compression 15s (AWT15X), and possibly some Memphis 15s. What does anyone think about these choices?
What amp would be best for pushing these? If I ge the Kickers I will need 2000 watts total for the pair of them. If I get the Immortals I will need 4000 watts total, the Linears 6000 watts total. If I get the Memphis 1600 watts total. What amps would best suit these needs?
Also what are the suggestions for an amp to push the CDT HD-62EF? I will need one to push those, the Kicker K410, and the Kicker RMB8. I know I will probably need different amps but what are your suggestions?
Old_man_audio on 12/25/2003 07:18:34
Very interesting stuff here guys... the Bahns rate their subs and amps at proper RMS figures. Their "interior speakers" are rated in pairs. Ie: Bahn 6x9 xxxxx rated @ .250 RMS means 150 RMS per speaker. Hope that claifies what you have heard... you heard part of the story right... just an incomplete answer. Bahn is the odd man out rating speakers this way. But is made very clear on their web site in doing so.
As for subs... Bahns are a pretty good SPL sub. The best SQ sub they have made to my knowledge is the Sound Q Series Alum12 or 15Q's. These are 6 ohm DVC's and rated at 1000/1100 RMS watts each.
ALUM12Q 12" Subwoofer w/ dual 6ohm voice coils - 1000 watts RMS $ 278.99
ALUM15Q 15" Subwoofer w/ dual 6ohm voice coils - 1100 watts RMS $ 353.99
If you really want a loud sub system with both SQ and SPL, look at the Adire Brahma series. Thes come in 10,12 15 and soon 18" versions. These are DVC (2 ohm) and the voice coils are rated at 1600 RMS.
The nice thing about Adire, they support what they sell with well above average Technical service and support. Are designed for high SQ/SPL in small sealed or ported enclosures as well. Not the cheapest sub in town, but I'll bet nobody in your neighborhood has them either... I like that aspect... not using what everyone else has, I mean,
Look here: http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/brahma_series.htm
As for interior speakers, CDT is an excellent choice for getting it loud and clear. Their Component series is top draw audiophile class gear. Can handle plenty of RMS watts in all series models. For the budget minded, the CL-61a is priced remarkably low for the performance you get.
CL-61a 6.5" 2-way Component System (pair)
Here's your chance to save $160! The paint finish on this batch of CL-61 components didn't turn out as bright as desired, so CDT decided to blow them out at a HUGE savings! These are exactly the same as the acclaimed 2003 CL-61, except that the red paint is not quite as bright -that's it! (comes with ¾” silk-dome tweeters) $309.99 MSRP
SALE $149.99/set.
Look here: http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
I have mentioned these to many here and on other forums too. Those who took the option have all come back to rave that these are truly 1st class Comps at a very low price. They all claim the midbass is very impressive and the silk tweeters are very well balanced and natural sounding... not harsh like others they have demoed. My next project will include a set (maybe 2) of this model.
Can talk about amps on a follow up post. For sure, you will be loloking at a pair of hefty amps for the subs... 1000 RMS or more and a beefy amp (or two) for the interior speakers.
FYI: The JBL BP1200.1 is a very good amp for the subs. It is Class D, mono and will do 1 or 2 ohm loads at rated power... 1200 RMS @ 12.9 volts. If you feed the amps more than 12.9 volts (say 13.5 volts) you can expect close to 1300 watts RMS per sub. It will draw 114 amps at full power, but when fused at 80A.'s it rarely will blow the fuse unless you use bass test CD's. At less than $300.00 per amp, cannot beat the watts/$$ ratio.
Munchiesyumm on 12/27/2003 22:39:50
yes I will second that.
If you want serious bass order some Advire and JBL amp/amps
any more questions?
erikcooper on 12/30/2003 00:31:25
Wow guys, this last post from old_man_audio was extremely helpful. I will definitely look into the JBLs. What is a good amp for my Xplods that I have now. I plan to run them as well as the 15s that I buy. They are the 12" Xplods, not the P5s, and rated at 350w RMS. I have two of them. I guess now I just await your advice on the amps, namely for the 12s and the interior.
swez on 12/30/2003 10:58:42
Swez here... aka Old_Man_Audio
OK, we're making progress ... let's try to break all this up into sub topics and maybe spread the details over multiple posts. Will be easier to remain focused and keep the details in their respective locations. File and detail management is important when doing such a complex install.
1 Subs and amps
2.Interior speakers & amp
3.Wiring, power distribution and hardware needs
4.HU & signal processors
5.Pulling it all together
For now, let's focus on Subs/ Amps and power management OK?
Yes, the Adire Brahma 15" is a terrific sub. It will handle 1600 watts worth of electrical power, but depending on the enclosure design, max excursion will be reached well before the electrical max is reached due to the large excursion capability of this sub design. This sub will move a lot of air with 1000 watts RMS of power. A modest vented enclosure of say 2.5 cf +/- 10% (internal air space) should be more than enough.
See this link for Brahma tecnical details: http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/brahma_series.htm
May I suggest a two stage (Bi-amped) sub system for your application? Since you wish to keep the Sony X-plode 12's, use these as midbass drivers with an operating range of say 80 - 120 Hz. Here, a modest amp and a small sealed enclosure (_0.75 cf/chamber) will do the trick. The amp you have now may work or can upgrade later. Won't need a lot of power in this range to blend the bass. A good active filtering network will definitely help though. More on that later... just ask.
Now, for the deep low bass, a single Brahma (15 or 18") in a ported enclosure will definitly bring on the "THUNDER". With a little help from Adire Technical, we can figure out a ported enclosure design that will net 30-80 Hz., power for the low bass engine. You will need a subsonic filter on the amp you choose, but this is both easy and inexpensive to accomplish when paired with a single JBL BP1200.1
POWER MANAGEMENT:
Since we are looking at 1 hefty sub amp, 1 modest midbass amp and probably a decent 4 channel for mids/highs in the interior, we have to figure out how much power will be demanded from the electrical system to run all this gear well. The breakdown may look something like this:
1. JBL 1200.1: Max current draw is 114A. (typ. working load is ~90A.)
2. Midbass amp: Don't need much here... 100 watts per sub (Sony's) is plenty so a 200 watt amp will draw about 25A.
3. A 4 channel amp: 100 x 4 will draw about 50A.
YOU WILL NEED AN ACTIVE LINE DRIVER/FILTER NETWORK TO FEED EACH AMP THE PROPER RANGE OF SIGNALS.
Using this approach will insure adequate signal allocation and voltage to each band of frequencies fed to each amp and speakers. This will also give you added RCA outputs to manage all the RCA line outs. We are looking at a 3 band system here: More on this later too.
A. Low Bass 30-80 Hz.
B. Midbass 80-120 Hz.
C. Mids/highs 120 - 20,000 Hz. (passive filtering on mid & high drivers)
POWER TARGETS:
MAXIMUM: 114 + 30 + 60 = 204 amperes
NOMINAL: 90 + 25 + 50 = 165 amperes
Basically, we are talking about a 200 - 300A power source for all this gear. That's very expensive. However, one can often add an AUX ALT/BAT supply to power the larger amplifiers and run the interior amp off the car/truck primary system.
That is often cheaper and easier to do than getting 1 huge ALT to do the whole job. Adding a 160A. ALT., mounted to the block can be done by yourself or by a custom electrical shop. Have no idea what that cost would be, but some research on your part will give you the answers you need.
As you can see, this is a very complex system so good planning and equipment selection is "mission critical". You don't have to be a "Rocket Scientist" to do all this either. Just take one bite at a time... to eat an elephant. GRIN
Hope this is helpful in collecting your thoughts before you start buying gear. Lay all this on in a logical master plan, and you will have a super SQL system when done.
Swez a.k.a. Old_Man_Audio
NOTE: A good 4 channel amp for mid/highs really depends on what speakers you want and how loud you want them. With the system we are talking about here, figure 75-100 watts RMS x 4 channels will do nicely.
Are we having fun yet? hehe
erikcooper on 12/30/2003 11:14:32
I have fun just discussing this actually. I like what I am seeing so far but I see two problems in the latest post.
1. On the interior amp it will need to push 2 6.5"s, 2 tweets, and 2 4 x 10s. I have the Kicker K410s and I am going to order the CDT HD-62CV or HD-62EF. The EF are cheaper cause of a special but I can't find specs on CDTs pae for them. The CVs are 100w RMS. The K410s are 30w RMs.
2. Will running only 100w to the Sonys not clip them?? They are 350w RMS subs. Right now I think they are being misused anyway with the little amp I have pushing them. Shouldn't they be much closer to 350w or will it not hurt them?
erikcooper on 12/30/2003 19:59:11
I have decided no amp is needed for the 4 x 10s, I will run them from the HU. So what is a good 100w x 4 amp? And what is a good 350w x 2 amp for the midbasses? And finally what is the highest RMS that the JBL 1200 should be used to push?
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 02:50:56
No one seen this or everyone thinking?
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 10:58:49
What kind of amp would it take to push the Audiobahn AWIS 15 Immortal 2000W RMS 15s? They are Quad voice Coil at 2 Ohm.
Same question for the AW1506T which is 1300w RMS and has Dual 4 OHm Voice Coils. 2 Ohm or 8 Ohm operation.
Also, the AW1508T. 2000w RMS Dual 2 Ohm coils so 1 or 4 Ohm operation.
Any ideas?
uochronos on 01/2/2004 12:52:58
with 2000watt rms you would need qiute an amp to run just one of those and you would definatly need to do some electrical system upgrades... i would suggest an amp like a phoenix gold octane series 3000watt mono amp for the 15" immortal. the 3000watts is max at 2ohm... i want to say it has an rms of like 1500-1800watts but as i cant load there page right now but that would run either of those subs nicley.
as for the jbl 1200.1 i would run anythuing upt to 1500watts i would think.
and i wouldnt suggest runing the sony subs that far under RMS in a sealed enclosure but they might sound ok in a ported box since it takes less to push them then. but still really under powered.
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 14:39:14
I am running the Sonys right now but I am wanting to know a good amp to use to push them. Also, my friend is looking to get some like mine but I am wanting to know if anyone knows any subs that are better than the Sonys for around that price. I can get the Sonys for him for $65 a piece. I will look up the Phoenix amp because I may be getting a great deal on the AW1508s.
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 16:30:29
The Phoenix amp that you mean is the OCTANE-R 30.0:1. Does anyone know how many watts this thing will do RMS? It is 3000w but that is max.
I looked at the manual it has online and the 15.0:1 is 1500w max and 1000w RMS, so do you think that the 30.0:1 would be 2000w RMS?
Nevermind I looked at sounddomain and the specs on it say 1000w x 1 at 4 Ohms or 2000w RMS x 1 at 2 Ohm.
It is $950 though, anyone know anything any cheaper?? Could you run two JBL 1200.1 s on it?
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 17:09:46
What does anyone think about this amp running either of the 2000 watt subs?
Audiobahn A18001DT
Let me know.
Audiobahn also has these rackmount amps that could be useful to me. What do you guys think of the A500X2Q which does 350 x 2 at 4 Ohms Stereo, and the A4X100HQ or the A100X4Q which both do 100w x 4 in 2 Ohm Stereo.
If you do not like these or know something cheapers that gets the same thing let me know.
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 18:08:54
I just got two of the AW1508s for $340 plus $60 shipping. That is a great deal. Now I got to get an amp for em. My friend wants one of them so I need to find an amp that can push them and get 2 of them.
uochronos on 01/2/2004 19:00:16
that amp is 900$ retail go on ebay and you can get it brand new for alot cheaper... the octance r 3000watt should be 2000watts rms i cheakced with a friend that has one and thats what he said the manual said. although that is sort of hear say but since the phoenix gold site doenst really say thats the best i have. and if that still too much for you then try to give me a price range.... you said you wanted a good amp so i gave you the high end one that i trust very well... also if your paying 65$ a piece for sonys you can get 2 alpine type r 10's that well blow those all the way to hell for 200$ on ebay. also you can get type S alpine for about the same as the sonys and those well still blow sony away.. btw just checked on ebay 2 12" type S alpines for for 139. and 2 10" alpine type S go for 129... thats for a pair. i can help you find a amp in your price range but i well need to know what you want to spend... i personaly go for high quality. Honestly i think phoenix gold is the way to go for amps but i'm also willing to save up for a long time to get that quality... i have seen phoenix gold amps take quite a beating and still last for years and years... my buddy has a 1998 model in his truck and it looks like its been threw a war but it sounds and works fine.., they also only use really high end components. also for 3000watts(2000rms) 900$ company suggested retail isnt bad... infact its hard to find that big of an amp for as cheap as you can get the octane r on ebay i saw 4 brand new ones on there a couple weeks back for 550$ each i belive...
also you list the auidiobahn a18001dt amp that amp is the same price as the phoenix gold amp i mentions but 200watts less....
erikcooper on 01/2/2004 20:01:13
Good info. Will reply longer later, but I can get the audiobahn a18001 for $499 at justaudiobahn.com.
uochronos on 01/2/2004 20:30:36
ya i assumed you could get it cheaper then 900$ i was just saying both companies list the retails of the amps the same... all be it i dont have any bahn experience so i cant say they are a bad amp. i'm just saying you would get 200watts more for the same money out of a phoenix gold octane amp... if you look around ont he net or find one on ebay.
erikcooper on 01/3/2004 01:23:52
I have found the bahn amp for $350 on Ebay. I am going to start looking for the PG one now and see what I can find.
On another note, I plan to build my own fiberglass dash/console in one, door panels, and speaker enclosures. Do you think that this righ there would help me out, or would it be a waste of money?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3069110421&category=50569
Let me know. Also if anyone can vouch for the other bahn amps I listed for the 12s I have and the components, please do.
Edit: No luck finding the PG Octane 3000w on Ebay...
uochronos on 01/3/2004 11:53:22
The octanes sale pretty fast on ebay i think its the same guy that keeps listing alot of them at buy it now... you could look and see if one guy is saleing alot of the octane stuff and ask if he has any that arnt listed... they are really nice amps they are PG's new "affordable series" but the quality is just as good as my tantrum series amp... and as far as eye appealing they are just beutiful... i wouldnt be trying to push this amp but for 200watts nmroe and as nice features as it has i think it would be worth doing some looking about. i well look around myself and see what i can find.
swez on 01/3/2004 18:16:28
Gee, missed a lot since my last stop here...
About the Sony's... I mention them as a good midbass driver with a small - medium sized amp because as a sub moves up in frequency, the output dB goes up rapidly due to efficiency factors. At 60 - 100 Hz, these subs (Sony) will only need 75 -100 watts RMS each to put out adequate SPL. Using this arrangement, you may wish to delete the 4 x10's entirely as that's what these do any way... poor man's midbass drivers. In this application, no need for a huge amp or enclosure for the Sony's as they will only do midbass.
Now, if you were using the Sony's for low end bass, (35 - 60 Hz.) more power would be needed to get the SPL up to par. But since you are going for a larger subwoofer amp and driver(s), this part of the system will take car of the deep low end bass. (below 60 Hz.)
Finally, need to advise that there is only a +3dB SPL difference in a single woofer and amp rated at 1000 watts VS 2000 watts. (RMS of coarse) One can hear that difference, but it's not going to spill your drink out of the cup holder or blast out the windows either. Considering all the added cost for amp(s), subs and electrical upgrades.. is that +3dB work all that extra cost? To an SPL Comp guy maybe. To the average street pounder... maybe not. Only you can say what is best for your situation.
Again, this is just FYI... do what you wish, but do it with fore knowledge of what you will get for the effort and $$$ spent.
Swez COFFEE
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 02:16:34
Well, I may as well use the 4 x 10s as I already have them. As for the difference in power for the Sonys, will it not hurt them to underpower them that much? And as for the 1000w to 2000w difference I already have an AW1508Q. I have found something that says this is a 2000w RMS sub, but then someone said it was only 1100w. Can someone check up on that and let me know? I only want an amp that will power this sub and not hurt it. If it accomplishes that, I should be happy. I still am clueless on what amps to use for the components and sonys though...
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 02:40:27
After reading some more posts to keep the trebble/bass ratio semi close your going to need some interiors speakers that can handle some serious power like 100 - 150 watt speakers so u need a very high powered 4 channel amp. You have some AMAZING subs you need some mids/highs to match it!
www.crutchfield.com and http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/ has tons of interior speakers. Polk Audio, Phoenix Gold, Alpine
What interior speakers do you currently have? Brand, RMS rating?
I thought you said you had some 4x10's and some 61/2's
Here are some 4 channel amp options
Orion 800.4 $359
4 x 100 watts @ 4 Ohm
4 x 200 watts @ 2 Ohm
2 x 400 watts @ 4 Ohm
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13478
JBL 300.4
75w x 4 into 4 ohms
150W x 4 into 2 ohms
300W x 2 into 4 ohms bridged
http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/1651
Audio Bahn A4125HC $399
Amplifier - 125x4 @ 4ohm
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/audiobahn_amplifiers.html
RockFord Fosgate Punch 801X
100 W X 4 @ 4 Ohms RMS
200 W X 4 @ 2 Ohms RMS
http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/rockfordfosgateamps.html
I saw swez putting some big numbers down for 4 channel amps so I decided to help! I was bored so why nott!
hope this helps
swez on 01/4/2004 04:33:55
The AW1508Q is rated at 2000 watts RMS, 2+2 DVC. (1 or 4 ohms per sub is possible with both voice coils used.
Here are the specs: http://www.audiobahninc.com/products/woofers/flameCompression.html
As for the amp... A pair of Bahn A1500HCQ's will deliver. But you will need major electrical upgrades here to power a pair of these.
Bahn A1500HCQ Amplifier - 2000x1 @ 1ohm (watts) $369.99 /sub will definitely get you the power to drive the subs mentioned. This is a very good price from Zeb audio for that much power.
As for the Sony subs... 100 watts RMS per sub is fine, (midbass) will not damage the subs if you don't overdrive the amp. (clipping) You know this is a fact, as it is the same deal as when running your system at low power. They sound fine at 30 - 50% power right ? Sure they do!
About running the interior speakers... going to be very bass heavy if you use a pair of amps and subs that put out 4000 watts RMS. Your subs will be in the 150 dB range. To keep up with that, your interior speakers will have to be very potent too. Nothing stock will take anywhere near 100 watts RMS per channel.
An 8:1 ratio is a good mix between mid/highs and subs. So, 4000 watts to subs, will need speakers and amps that will handle much more than 100 x 4. More like 500 RMS/ channel for the FRONT STAGE mid/highs. I know of no interior speakers that can take that much power and survive short of Professional audio gear. But not in a 6.5" driver... 8" midrange and a horn tweeter maybe, but not 6.5" Comps.
If you still want to run the 4x10's off the HU amp, looking at maybe 20 watts/speaker here and roughly 98-103dB max from that setup. Your subs will totally run them over. The question here is: Do you want a high powered sub system and full range to keep up or just loads of bass? So far, it appears that high bass SPL is the target and the rest is just whatever you can muster with off the shelf mid/high Comps and amp? Please clarify what you want OK?
Swez
PS I am getting confused by where this project is headed. Help me to help you by clarifying your end goal here.
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 17:10:33
Ok I have the AW1508s, but they are Qs, not Ts. Are the specs the same on them? I ordered two yes, but one is for my friend and the other for me. So I will only be running one of the amps and one of the subs, so 2000w not 4000w. I am going to order CDT interior speakers. Either the ones for $200 or for $150 from here : http://www.thezeb.com/caraudio/CDT_Audio_Components.html
Which ones do you suggest ordering?
Once I get those CDTs I will have all the speakers, at least for now. All I need to know is what amp to get to push them. I like the amp you suggested for the subs Swez. Nice price for it. So should I get a 6 x 100w for the 6.5s, tweeters, and 12s? or should I get 2 x 100w and 4 x 100w ? And then I need to filter out only certain frequencies to each driver. What is the best way to do that?
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 17:27:32
So we have one AW1508 2000watts RMS @ 1 ohm and the Bahn A1500HCQ Amplifier - 2000x1 thats perfect match up!
This will be a lot more easier to configure bass/mids/hi with only one of the subs.
Buy the CDT's model CL-61a I believe you were refering too, they are on sale and they are the same thing exscept paint color was not as bright? oh well..
I listed many very good 4 channel amplifers above if you would look
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 17:36:20
I saw that, so I should go with 4 x 100 and 2 x 100 instead of 6 x 100??
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 17:38:35
I am having a hard time understanding what exsactly do you need to plug into the amp? There have been soo many posts!
I thought you said 4x10's
and the CDT 6.5's
Are you still wanting to plug the sony's in for mids?
If so I can find a 6 channel amplifer so you can have one amp to do it all. It's going to be quiet exspensive 100 watts x6 is a very powerful amplifer.
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 18:03:03
six channel possibilities
Phoenix Gold XS6600 $449.00
4 ohm Mono 180 x 2 300 x 1
2 ohm Per Ch. 90 x 4 150 x 2
4 ohm Per Ch. 50 x 4
6 Channel Power Amplifier
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12992
Earthquake 6600XM-G $499
115 W x 6 channels Stereo Output (2 ohm)
85 W x 6 channels Stereo Output (4 ohm)
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12594
Audiobahn A6601T $449.00
75 x 6 at 4 Ohms Stereo
105 x 6 at 2 Ohms Stereo
210 x 3 at 4 Ohms Mono
http://www.carstereomall.com/store/store.cgi?command=listitems&pos=0&type=search2&search=ab-a6601t
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 18:22:05
I am plugging in the CDTs, 6.5s and tweeters, and the sonys at 100w. So yes 100w x 6.
Also I found some CDT HD-62 for $200. Should I get those instead?
Munchiesyumm on 01/4/2004 18:34:13
Well the HD-62 are very good speakers! Especially for $200 dollars the retail on those are $419 and www.thezeb.com is asking $389 I would definatly take up that offer for 50% off!
a good find!
How do you like the Six channel amps I perposed? The audio bahn seems like the best match up but lets see if anyone else can find some more amps or comment on this amp!
uochronos on 01/4/2004 21:03:24
I personaly bought a pair of the HD-62cf which is the same as the regular hd-62 ecept carbon fiber cones pretty much a few other little details, and these speakers sound great i'm running them off my HU. I cant wait to get an amp for them because running off the 20-30rm they have now they kick ass.
erikcooper on 01/4/2004 22:16:40
Only problem with the HD-62 is a ton more watts, means even bigger amp...
uochronos on 01/4/2004 22:20:15
notreally they are capable of handling alot moreyes but i have them hooked strieght to the HU and they sound great and in the end i only plan on giving them 75-100watts rms.... just because they said 130watts rms doesnt mean you have to give them all of it:) although it would be nice i'm sure... they dont seem to clip at all runinf strieght off the HU either... infact i get no distortion out of them except at really high levels. like 90% of volume or more.
erikcooper on 01/5/2004 01:04:47
Cool, may have to get them, if anyone else wants these at this deal let me know. I will give you a link, I think the guys has 10, all new and in box.
erikcooper on 01/5/2004 10:18:12
Ok guys. I am going to start a new topic, this one is getting long. I will take all the highlights from the recent posts.
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